Posted on May 3, 2017
If the distance for the PT test run was 2.13 miles, am I still allowed to dispute it and request a retest?
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Running
APFT
Physical Training
Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 239
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Unbelievable - All of the "LEADERS?" on this chain, and not a single one of you taking ownership of the issue at hand? If the service member is marginal physically, then it's likely that your leadership is marginal. It wouldn't matter if you reduced the course to 1.5 miles, you will still have service members performing marginally on that, too! Sure, passing the run would be a breeze for the first year, but the next round of tests would show those marginal team-mates right back down there in the margins, where the lack of leadership has left them.
There is a dichotomy of thought in the TRUE leader's mind here:
1: Cross your T's, dot your I's: Take extra care that all courses are equal to or less than 2miles, so that the legal stuff is neatly squared away.
2: Lead your people - get your @ss out of the rack with YOUR TEAM-MATES every morning and DO PT as a functional team so that NO ONE that is medically capable of passing, doesn't easily pass it by a long shot.
There are no marginal service members - only marginal leaders.
There is a dichotomy of thought in the TRUE leader's mind here:
1: Cross your T's, dot your I's: Take extra care that all courses are equal to or less than 2miles, so that the legal stuff is neatly squared away.
2: Lead your people - get your @ss out of the rack with YOUR TEAM-MATES every morning and DO PT as a functional team so that NO ONE that is medically capable of passing, doesn't easily pass it by a long shot.
There are no marginal service members - only marginal leaders.
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The Army demands that soldiers meet standards. To lengthen the distance and not likewise change the minimum time is simply dishonest. What if a commander shortened the distance in order to ensure everyone passed the test?
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If this Soldier is trying to get promoted to SGT or SSG in a job that because of points pretty much Requires you to max out you APFT I would see NOTHING wrong with the Soldier using the open door policy to talk with the Platoon Leader/ company commander regarding the need for an accurate test. and if they refuse to fix it go to the Inspector General. Also, and NCO in this unit should have some personal courage and integrity and FIX the run course if it is proven to be wrong. be in better shape is a shitty reply to someone who has a valid concern, uphold the standard and take some pride in it, don't be afraid of being yelled at for doing the right thing for yourself or your Soldiers.
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CPO (Join to see)
This PFC might consider talking to every E4 up for E5 and every E5 up for E6. All those Soldiers should tally up how many promotion points they lost by having to run an extra 229 yards at the end of the 2 mile run. Some might be out two dozen promotion points or more....
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2 miles is 2 miles. Anything over would cause any flagging action to be revoked upon a formal internal/external 15-6 investigation or IG inspection. Even if a Soldier fails and is welllllllll over the passing time, and has a history of struggling on runs, the command would have to suck the egg for failing to validate the run route distance and grade. But of course the key is "if". Typically the 1SG or CSM would review the Soldiers request, (Training) verify findings and grant the request if found valid. Additional measures would be taken to ensure this does not happen again. Of course, this recourse would open the floodgates for every run failure throughout the organization.
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CPO (Join to see)
SGM (Join to see) Even Soldiers that passed the APFT would have a grievance because they all lost promotion points due to the higher run times on the extended 2.13 mile course. The difference between a 274 APFT score and 260 APFT score is 24 promotion points for a SPC/CPL competing for SGT. I would certainly call IG if I missed promotion by a few points and I knew the command had wrongfully excluded two dozens points from my tally.
(A 20 y/o male that would score 74 on a 2 mile course, drops to 60 at that same pace on a 2.13 mile course due to the extra 229 yards.)
(A 20 y/o male that would score 74 on a 2 mile course, drops to 60 at that same pace on a 2.13 mile course due to the extra 229 yards.)
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Yes you are. The standard is in Black and White, "2 miles". No questions asked. Dispute this through your command until it comes off. No NJP can happen to you for appealing results from a Regulation executed incorrectly.
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As a former training room NCO I took our measuring wheel and validated it's accuracy by measuring a 300' tape measur laid out in a strate line, once I knew the wheel was accurate I would validate the run rout by starting at the designated turn around point and walking back 5280' and zero inches, that marked the start point. Then turned around and confirmed my resaults. I did this because on more then one occasion a soldier would fail and try to say the course was too long and the test invalid, which was then easy to prove it wasn't. Also understand that although car odomitors are accurate assuming you have the stock tire size, proper pressure etc, they aren't accurate enough to measure down to the foot, they don't need to be, they just need to be accurate enough so that you do your regular maintenance reasonably close to when your supposed to.
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Soldiers are using there phones to calibrate the distance and thus getting incorrect results.
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Okay, if the .13 is making that much of a difference then you need to work on your run, no denying that. However, the standard is 2 mi so the NCOIC administering the APFT should ensure that the course is to standard. But again, rather than concerning yiurself with whether it is to standard, make sure you are to standard. Focus on improving your run and that .13 won't matter.
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CPO (Join to see)
Wrong answer.... This is not a fitness issue for a single PFC, it is a leadership failure hurting the entire unit and the Army at large. The command is screwing all of its Soldiers and good Soldiers are being passed over for promotion because leadership cannot accurately measure out 2 miles.
A 20 y/o male Soldier who runs at a pace that would normally earn an APFT score of 74 on the 2 mile run, would only obtain an APFT score of 60 when he has to run 2.13 miles. The scoring difference between 74 and 60, equates to the command improperly eliminating 24 promotion points from *all* Soldiers in that bracket. That is like handing out the Meritorious Service Medal (25 promotion points) to all the competition at the Jr Enlisted Promotion Board because they only ran 2 miles, but he had to run 2.13 miles.
Leadership is failing *all* the Soldiers but you're overlooking their failure by focusing attention and corrective action on the PFC. Every time the extended APFT course is used, the command screws over all the Soldiers participating. How would you feel if you were 4 points short of the cut off score for promotion and knew that your unit leadership had improperly eliminated 24 promotion points from your final tally? Go check how much an E4 is paid and donate all your E5 earnings above that amount to charity while you wait 6 months for your next APFT, then another month until the next promotion board, and another month waiting to pin on. Now multiple that amount for each E4 in the unit....
That is just one aspect that this extended APFT course impacts. What about all the Soldiers improperly flagged who are now unfairly ineligible for promotion or wrongly unable to be recognized with an award. How badly will this invalid APFT impact Soldiers' OER/NCOER and how long will that OER/NCOER haunt the Soldier? What about the Soldiers that would have scored 70 on a 2-mile course but fail on the 2.13-mile course and get kicked out of the Army? Once Soldiers do the math, what is going to happen to morale and respect for Army leadership?
How does the PFC running faster address all those issues?
A 20 y/o male Soldier who runs at a pace that would normally earn an APFT score of 74 on the 2 mile run, would only obtain an APFT score of 60 when he has to run 2.13 miles. The scoring difference between 74 and 60, equates to the command improperly eliminating 24 promotion points from *all* Soldiers in that bracket. That is like handing out the Meritorious Service Medal (25 promotion points) to all the competition at the Jr Enlisted Promotion Board because they only ran 2 miles, but he had to run 2.13 miles.
Leadership is failing *all* the Soldiers but you're overlooking their failure by focusing attention and corrective action on the PFC. Every time the extended APFT course is used, the command screws over all the Soldiers participating. How would you feel if you were 4 points short of the cut off score for promotion and knew that your unit leadership had improperly eliminated 24 promotion points from your final tally? Go check how much an E4 is paid and donate all your E5 earnings above that amount to charity while you wait 6 months for your next APFT, then another month until the next promotion board, and another month waiting to pin on. Now multiple that amount for each E4 in the unit....
That is just one aspect that this extended APFT course impacts. What about all the Soldiers improperly flagged who are now unfairly ineligible for promotion or wrongly unable to be recognized with an award. How badly will this invalid APFT impact Soldiers' OER/NCOER and how long will that OER/NCOER haunt the Soldier? What about the Soldiers that would have scored 70 on a 2-mile course but fail on the 2.13-mile course and get kicked out of the Army? Once Soldiers do the math, what is going to happen to morale and respect for Army leadership?
How does the PFC running faster address all those issues?
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SGT (Join to see)
A lot of valid points here, and all of these can help all of us to be better leaders. They key take away is that it is the leadership responsibility to ensure that the APFT course is legitimate and if it is not find one that meets the standard and allow the retest for all affected by it. Thanks for your enlightening feedback. This will help me to not set my soldiers up for failure if I am ever in that position as a leader.
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So there are a few answers to your question. Here goes:
First, yes, your Chain Of Command SHOULD honor a request to re-measure the course. IF you have a VALID reason why you believe that the course is over 2 miles. And driving it in your car is not a valid reason. If your CoC already measured the course and says that it’s 2 miles, you’d better have an iron-clad reason to refute that.
Second, if your CoC is already using the course it probably DOES think it’s 2 miles. Which means that you probably have a tough road ahead of you to get any kind of change.
Third and finally, sigh. You’ve heard this before from tons of people on here and most likely tons of people in your Unit: should that extra distance matter? While I say of COURSE it should and understand where you are coming from, I also spent enough time as a low-ranking Soldier and as a high-ranking Soldier to know that it’s gonna go something like this:
You: “I want a redo!”
Your CoC: “No.”
You: “But the course is longer than it should be!”
CoC: “Nope, we checked it, fat boy.”
You: “Well I rechecked it using (insert method here) and its .13 miles longer than it should be!”
CoC: “We have be n doing this longer than you. So you must be wrong. And your still a fat boy. Remedial PT and a Bar of Favorable Actions are in your near future.”
You: “But that’s wrong!”
CoC: “Nope, YOU’RE wrong. Now do push-ups.”
So after all of that frustration happens, you can either suck it up (a terrible fate that I hate telling anyone who is actually in the right), you can bring it to the next higher level in your CoC using the Open Door policy (but don’t forget to tell your CoC you’re doing it as a curtesy or you’re gonna bring down the pain on yourself), or you can fuel a Congressional complaint, in which case you’ve jumped ed the shark as far as hoping to stay in your current unit is concerned, and God help you if nothing comes of it.
Whichever you choose, I wish you good luck. And I also think you should get on the frigging treadmill and pound feet until you could pass the run if it had an extra frigging mile attached to it.
First, yes, your Chain Of Command SHOULD honor a request to re-measure the course. IF you have a VALID reason why you believe that the course is over 2 miles. And driving it in your car is not a valid reason. If your CoC already measured the course and says that it’s 2 miles, you’d better have an iron-clad reason to refute that.
Second, if your CoC is already using the course it probably DOES think it’s 2 miles. Which means that you probably have a tough road ahead of you to get any kind of change.
Third and finally, sigh. You’ve heard this before from tons of people on here and most likely tons of people in your Unit: should that extra distance matter? While I say of COURSE it should and understand where you are coming from, I also spent enough time as a low-ranking Soldier and as a high-ranking Soldier to know that it’s gonna go something like this:
You: “I want a redo!”
Your CoC: “No.”
You: “But the course is longer than it should be!”
CoC: “Nope, we checked it, fat boy.”
You: “Well I rechecked it using (insert method here) and its .13 miles longer than it should be!”
CoC: “We have be n doing this longer than you. So you must be wrong. And your still a fat boy. Remedial PT and a Bar of Favorable Actions are in your near future.”
You: “But that’s wrong!”
CoC: “Nope, YOU’RE wrong. Now do push-ups.”
So after all of that frustration happens, you can either suck it up (a terrible fate that I hate telling anyone who is actually in the right), you can bring it to the next higher level in your CoC using the Open Door policy (but don’t forget to tell your CoC you’re doing it as a curtesy or you’re gonna bring down the pain on yourself), or you can fuel a Congressional complaint, in which case you’ve jumped ed the shark as far as hoping to stay in your current unit is concerned, and God help you if nothing comes of it.
Whichever you choose, I wish you good luck. And I also think you should get on the frigging treadmill and pound feet until you could pass the run if it had an extra frigging mile attached to it.
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CPO (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) Yes the extra distance matters! 0.13 miles is 229 yards. The APFT requires a minimum score of 60 in each event to pass. I wil use a 20 year old male Soldier's APFT numbers to illustrate how much 0.13 mile matters. Because Soldiers have to run over two football fields longer before the timer stops, *every* Soldier will fail if they run slower than what would have been a 74 on a regulation 2 mile course.
You are basically telling the PFC he needs to run at a pace that would score 74 on a 2-mile course, just so he can be assigned a 60 on the 2.13 mile course. For a SPC/CPL trying to become a SGT, that 0.13 mile eliminates 24 promotion points from his final tally when he goes before the Jr Enlisted Promotion Board. That is the equivalent of giving a Meritorious Service Medal (25 promotion points) to everyone else competing for promotion because they only ran 2 miles instead of 2.13 miles.
Yes that 0.13 mile matters! If the course is wrong, leadership is wrong. (The PFC has stated several times he used a measuring wheel to confirm the course length at 2.13 miles) The PFC running faster might keep him from getting flagged again, but the command is continuing to screw over every Soldier that runs that APFT course with lower promotion points, false APFT failures, improper flags, undeserving adverse OER/NCOER, and even erroneous discharges from the Army.
There definitely appears to be plenty of grounds for an IG complaint. Depending on the demographics of the primary victims of the command's extended 2.13 mile course who were improperly disciplined, there could easily be grounds for EO/EEO complaints against the command. Depending on how the commander and CSM responded to the complaint(s) they might get through things relatively unscathed but I'm thinking it could be a career ended fiasco if they erroneously discharged a couple Soldiers for APFT failures when the alleged failures were a direct result of invalid testing. Most commanders would readily toss the APFT OIC/NCOIC under the bus in order to save their own career. After all, shouldn't the APFT OIC/NCOIC take the hit if they failed to do there job properly and the unit's Soldiers were screwed over by their failure?
274 APFT score versus 260 APFT score converted to promotion points for E5/SGT JEPB
http://ec.militarytimes.com/static/pdfs/STEP_APFT_Table_SGT_SSG.pdf
You are basically telling the PFC he needs to run at a pace that would score 74 on a 2-mile course, just so he can be assigned a 60 on the 2.13 mile course. For a SPC/CPL trying to become a SGT, that 0.13 mile eliminates 24 promotion points from his final tally when he goes before the Jr Enlisted Promotion Board. That is the equivalent of giving a Meritorious Service Medal (25 promotion points) to everyone else competing for promotion because they only ran 2 miles instead of 2.13 miles.
Yes that 0.13 mile matters! If the course is wrong, leadership is wrong. (The PFC has stated several times he used a measuring wheel to confirm the course length at 2.13 miles) The PFC running faster might keep him from getting flagged again, but the command is continuing to screw over every Soldier that runs that APFT course with lower promotion points, false APFT failures, improper flags, undeserving adverse OER/NCOER, and even erroneous discharges from the Army.
There definitely appears to be plenty of grounds for an IG complaint. Depending on the demographics of the primary victims of the command's extended 2.13 mile course who were improperly disciplined, there could easily be grounds for EO/EEO complaints against the command. Depending on how the commander and CSM responded to the complaint(s) they might get through things relatively unscathed but I'm thinking it could be a career ended fiasco if they erroneously discharged a couple Soldiers for APFT failures when the alleged failures were a direct result of invalid testing. Most commanders would readily toss the APFT OIC/NCOIC under the bus in order to save their own career. After all, shouldn't the APFT OIC/NCOIC take the hit if they failed to do there job properly and the unit's Soldiers were screwed over by their failure?
274 APFT score versus 260 APFT score converted to promotion points for E5/SGT JEPB
http://ec.militarytimes.com/static/pdfs/STEP_APFT_Table_SGT_SSG.pdf
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To me they had us do a diagnostic 2 mile and they told us it was 2 miles. Come to find out it was 3. Most of us failed of course but sometimes I'd rather know it's 2 miles. Morale of the story, don't lie to your soldiers because if you lie, they won't trust you as much
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