Posted on Jun 12, 2017
SGT Joseph Gunderson
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I believe that most, if not all of us, are familiar with the old army enlisted rank structure where one could go their entire career without ever becoming an NCO, but still make it up through the paygrades. We all have known people who were great at their jobs but not fit to lead. Is there any benefit to bringing back such an enlisted rank structure?
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Responses: 246
SPC Johnney Abbott
121
121
0
I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes. If you're happy at your present job and want to do it I don't think you should be forced to move up or out. Sadly some people aren't meant to lead, but worked their butts off where they are. No reason there shouldn't be lateral promotions.
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SP5 Sam Hollis
SP5 Sam Hollis
>1 y
The only reason I would disagree with you is:
The rank means nothing and we would be paralleling the outside workforce, you get title and no money. I prefer work to be recognized and be monetarily compensated.
If the individual wants to advance he/she would have the opportunity
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CPT William Jones
CPT William Jones
6 y
SP5 Sam Hollis - The money is the purpose in having specialist. Tey will have little command authority but will be allowed to stay in and get more pay as time goes on. We spend lots of money to train an aircraft mechanic. I know of one that was told he would not be allowed to stay in fixing helicopters he must be promoted .He left, the army lost a very valuable asset. There are lots like him
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CW3 Leo McKenna
CW3 Leo McKenna
6 y
Was a SP5 and was happy being a crew chief got promoted to SSG and now no more crewing as an NCO. There is a place for the Specialist rank.
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SFC Intelligence Senior Sergeant/Chief Intelligence Sergeant
SFC (Join to see)
6 y
I made SP5 back in May of 1980. My First SGT said I am short of Hard stripes. So far as I am concerned you are a Sergeant and I will use you as such. You don't perform you will lose that rocker on top of your shield. The needs of the Army will determine how specialist are used.
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1SG Vet Technician
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66
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If they did, I would love to become the SPC 9 of the army

But seriously, I don't see the benefit. As you increase your grade, your responsibilities and your influence expand quite a bit. You are often no longer just doing your MOS, but asked to take leadership in other areas. Thus, as a Soldier moves through the middle grades, they need that junior NCO leadership development to help them as succeed later. The closest we have to senior Specialist ranks are MSG and SGM. But, even though they are often in Staff positions and not command, no one will doubt their ability as a NCO leader
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SPC Korey Kilburn
SPC Korey Kilburn
>1 y
CPL Chris Palmberg my sister went to WO School after she made the SFC promotion list. She was the network manager in Korea, Hungary (Operation Restore Hope), El Salvador( humanitarian mission after hurricane) my point she was the manager. As a young PFC she ran wire.
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SPC Korey Kilburn
SPC Korey Kilburn
>1 y
COL Ralph Bryan Hanes there were PAs in the old days but sometime after Vietnam they were all converted to Commissioned Officers. So no medical warrants.
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SGT Brianna MacKinnon
SGT Brianna MacKinnon
5 y
SPC Korey Kilburn - They started converting them when I was stationed at Ft Riley KS. I was with the 1st ID from 1988 to 1992 and it took place around 1990. Our Divarty Chief Medical Officer was promoted to Major just before he PCS'd to Ft Drum NY.
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CPT William Jones
CPT William Jones
5 y
The specialist was supposed to be the enlisted WO knows all the rules and reg for personnel for example or some type of mechanic
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
67
66
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The question pops up from time to time.

The major issue is one of "force structure." For every Non-NCO in paygrades E4-E9, we must give up an NCO of equal grade. That's the drawback.

Why use someone who is not fit to lead when you get someone who is fit to lead (and capable of performing the same primary task) for the same cost? (both financial and opportunity)
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PO2 Michael Johnson
PO2 Michael Johnson
6 y
It costs less to retain than it does to train. For every competent, skilled man you toss out, you have to invest lots of time and money to train someone else up to the level he was at, and you have to recruit several just to find the one that has the aptitude to get there.
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SFC Charles Miller
SFC Charles Miller
6 y
Do we not have that now with NCOs who dont know how to lead and have to be carried through every task!? Think they aren’t out there? Better think again! I’d rather be short of personnel than have to babysit them and take up my valuable time!
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SFC Erland Heinrich
SFC Erland Heinrich
>1 y
As I once told a buck Sergeant years and years ago the difference between the Spec 5 like myself and a buck Sergeant like him is that I knew what the hell I was doing!
I feel the Army loses a great deal when they promote subject matter experts from that field to strictly leadership positions. The wealth of knowledge that is lost is unmeasurable. Like warrant officers the Army needs the senior specialist rank for their subject matter experts!
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SSG Section Sergeant
SSG (Join to see)
5 y
SFC Charles Miller - we already babysit grown kids.
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In today's modern military, would there be any benefit to an enlisted structure similar to that of the past?
CPT Jack Durish
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20
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If a person has a skill that is important enough to warrant the pay, shouldn't they also be expected to mentor others? In other words, to lead? Service in the military is transient and no one is irreplaceable unless there is no one to replace them...
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SPC JeffRhey Bell
SPC JeffRhey Bell
>1 y
You can mentor without being "in charge". You can be the best at your mos and not be a leader. You shouldn't have to choose between warrant Officer or NCO.
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PO2 Charles Kokel
PO2 Charles Kokel
6 y
Well in the sea services that’s exactly how it work. You advance in your rate and are required to take the responsibility of leadership and training. If you chose to switch rates you drop back down to E4. I seen an E6 change rates and go back to E4. To advance you test on both military knowledge and job knowledge. You also must perform hands on ability prove you can actually perform your job.
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CW5 Roger Jacobs
17
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As a soldier who was enlisted in that old rank structure, the problem was that all to often senior Specialists (SP6 and SP7) were often thrust into leadership positions and were untrained and woefully unprepared to do the job. As a Warrant Officer who is the technical expert in their field we are called to teach, coach, mentor and lead at all levels. As stated in other comments, as you progress through the levels your responsibilities expand. I see no sense in going back to a system that just didn't work.
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SSG(P) Battalion S6 Communications Ncoic
SSG(P) (Join to see)
>1 y
Sir, I believe some NCOs today are also unfit to lead. I wholeheartedly believe that just because you are Senior NCO, or a manager, doesn't excuse you from job proficiency. Yes, he/she may not be expected to do the job physically, but you still must possess the basics when briefing the capabilities of equipment.
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PO2 Charles Kokel
PO2 Charles Kokel
6 y
It’s work in the sea services for years. Chiefs lead the subordinates aboard ship and on shore. The are also some to go to for technical questions.
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Charles Shaw
Charles Shaw
>1 y
Question Sir, as a warrant you mentor, coach and teach but do not rise to command ? In my opinion, Specialist is the Emlisted version.
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SGT Military Police
14
14
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I would say yes the older ranks could be useful. For example I knew a mechanic who couldn't lead you to the defac on time. However you gave him a vehicle that needed a repair, nor just a regular repair but the kind that stumps most mechanics, and you would watch a miracle happen. He would find and fix anything that was wrong with any vehicle. Why not promote people like this through the specialist ranks. To me I see it a the warrant officer in the enlisted ranks. An enlisted subject matter expert. It could also help with our NCO heavy army and be a step to balancing things out.
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CSM Clifford Fargason
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This has been beat to death in other posts. My background involved the Specialist ranks, in fact, I think I was the last SP6 on Fort McClellan while I was going through the transition course for Chemical NCO.
The reality of the Specialist ranks is that it was mostly tied up with a soldier's MOS. The exception to that was SP4. Almost everyone who made E4 (from early 70s at least) was a Specialist. I knew some who had to take a reduction to E4 after a break in service as an NCO and they were pinned as CPL. In technical MOSs like Satellite Communications everybody was a Specialist, even the leadership. And I am sure that there were guys wearing "hard stripes" in some Infantry units that were only in charge of their desks rather than soldiers.
Specialist ranks were not the ancestor of Warrant officers. The Warrants were around long before the specialist ranks came out, specialists were more an offshoot of the ranks with the T in the graphic - Technical Sergeants (from WWII era)
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COL David Turk
11
11
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This would be more applicable as we build a "cyber" force. A lot of "techies" like to focus on the computer monitor, and not necessarily leading others. I would have no problem with a room ful of spec five, six and sevens cyber sleuths, reporting to a warrant officer. Think of the savings (cost, and billets) of not sending this group to NCO and related schools. I'm assuming these individuals would never be deployed into a combat zone.
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
SGT Joseph Gunderson
>1 y
That is an incredible point. I have always supported the idea of bringing back the spec ranks but this makes great sense.
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COL David Turk
COL David Turk
>1 y
SSgt Joseph Baptist - you don’t have to be in the military to be deployable. The Corps of Engineers (USACE) has FEST teams that are comprised of DA civilians that must be able to deploy (physically and contractually) or they can’t be on the team. They provide engineering and related support. Even have specialized containers, with their support gear, staged for “move out”. They report to an engineer officer on site with them.

In my original example, I would have no problem with spec 5/6/7 deploying (as cyber nerds). But I would not expect them to be in NCO positions; except in emergency situations.
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MSgt James "Buck" Buchanan
10
10
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While doing Army support duty as a member of the Air Force I became familiar with the idea of the specialist grades. I think this is something that all of the services could benefit from as there are many within each branch who do not want to promote themselves out of a job. I personally knew guys in the AF who would score low on promotion tests so that they could continue to do the job they really enjoyed instead of getting promoted into a job they did not want to do.
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SGT Randall Smith
9
9
0
There’s many a job that takes knowledge and work but not leadership of more than 5 or 6 men. Cooks, finance, personnel, Signal, maintenance. Good men doing a good job but not NCO’s. They deserve to go up in rank on ability. I should have never been a Sgt.
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
SGT Joseph Gunderson
>1 y
See that's what I mean. Those very technical jobs don't really require NCOs, maybe one per shop, but to hold back great soldiers because of a slot issue sounds crappy.
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