Posted on Jun 29, 2021
Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?
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Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
Posted in these groups: 
Professional Development
Respect
Professional Development Respect
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
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Saw it once, and you seldom see a CSM without the BC being nearby. So of course the BC wanted to know why his CSM was in the position he was in. I didn't stick around, not my business.
Additionally I had a cadet try to get me to salute them. I did not, and told the cadet to get some time in or some actual rank and try again. The cadet was insistent, and this brought the attention of a nearby MAJ who was passing through. The cadet did not have a good time after that.
Additionally I had a cadet try to get me to salute them. I did not, and told the cadet to get some time in or some actual rank and try again. The cadet was insistent, and this brought the attention of a nearby MAJ who was passing through. The cadet did not have a good time after that.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
In the best units I was in, I rarely saw the BC and CSM together, except at formations or staff meetings.
BC and CSM should be two mouths with one voice / four eyes with one brain. Putting both mouths /sets of eyes in the same location is a waste of the second mouth / set of eyes.
BC and CSM should be two mouths with one voice / four eyes with one brain. Putting both mouths /sets of eyes in the same location is a waste of the second mouth / set of eyes.
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The CSM has neither the rank nor the authority to do that. It only makes me wonder how he got his rank in the first place. Frankly I've never heard of that happening.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
CSM most definitely has the authority. CSM is *the* keeper of the standard. (S)he has the authority to correct anyone and everyone within their sphere of influence.
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According to regulations, yes they are. However, any LT that doesn't immediately realize that the CSM has the ear of his chain of command and locks up that CSM really shouldn't be in the military.
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I've had a few behind closed door discussions with some junior officers. The conversation began with "may I speak candidly" and when permission was granted, I expressed my dislike on whatever the subject happened to be. I found this to be most fruitful over the years of my career. I would never call out anyone, officer or enlisted, in public. I certainly wouldn't appreciate being treated that way and would never subject anyone else to that type of treatment. Anyone who feels the need to conduct themselves in this manner are only stroking their own egos.
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I have never seen a 2nd LT that had the guts to say one word back to a CSM when he was called out, except, "Yes CSM" and moved out smartly.
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Chew outs aren't supposed to happen in public. Ever. Say something if you have to be be quick and tactful, then light them up in private if necessary.
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This scenario is one of those campfire stories that gets passed around, but likely never actually happened. In the daily business of the Army, a CSM and LT have little opportunity to interact, let alone get into some serious brouhaha such as public displays of temper or power. Just doesn't happen.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Sir,
The Army I experienced - having retired a little over 4 years ago - CSMs were out and about on a regular basis, and interacted with all ranks from PVT to COL pretty much every day.
Additionally, there are plenty of LTs running around a BN staff, which gives a CSM PLENTY of opportunity to find an ate up LT.
As for the campfire story thing, read through the thread. Plenty of folks relaying their story.
The Army I experienced - having retired a little over 4 years ago - CSMs were out and about on a regular basis, and interacted with all ranks from PVT to COL pretty much every day.
Additionally, there are plenty of LTs running around a BN staff, which gives a CSM PLENTY of opportunity to find an ate up LT.
As for the campfire story thing, read through the thread. Plenty of folks relaying their story.
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LTC Denis Sullivan
SFC Casey O'Mally Yes, I suppose you're right. I never had the pleasure, (or horror) of witnessing it myself. Usually someone got to the LT before it got to that stage, and I have never seen a CSM initiate it. HOOAH!
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Never saw such a situation. Maybe because of the professionalism of the NCOs or the fact they knew as an officer i 'would' listen to correction. As a new Mortar Platoon Leader, i had been used to dealing with one of my Squad Leaders, (Platoon Sergeant was on leave) then later, i told the squad leader to do someth8ng involving the entire platoon. The platoon sergeant took me asisde and informed my of my mistake. I apologized to him and then publicly informed the platoon i had been mistaken in my earleir approach.
In a later time, i heard a commotion in the orderly room. As the then company commander, i stuck my head in. My first sergeant said "NCO business sir." I turned around, walked out and closed the door.
In a later time, i heard a commotion in the orderly room. As the then company commander, i stuck my head in. My first sergeant said "NCO business sir." I turned around, walked out and closed the door.
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As an LT that served as a Platoon Leader in an an Airborne Infantry, I find this to be quite the urban myth.
You see, any Junior Officer worth his weight will acknowledge the fact that NCO’s run the military. Infantry Officer’s normally have a fair amount of respect for their NCO counterparts—much in part because of our interactions with quality NCO’s in IBOLC and Ranger School, where rank does not matter.
I’ve been chewed out by my Company First Sergeant for a mistake that I clearly overlooked from one of my Squad Leaders during the patrolling portion of one of our field training exercises. I’ve got to say that instead of getting my feelings hurt, I was actually humbled by the fact that this NCO cared enough about me to make the correction in the first place.
I would NEVER, in a million years, even fathom trying to lock up anyone over the rank of Sergeant, even for the most egregious of mistakes—much less a Command Sergeant Major. This is the quickest way to find yourself in the S3 shop, filing paperwork and fetching coffee for the Ops NCO’s.
Look, I’ve seen Captains get their assess handed to them by senior NCO’s and for good reason. If the LT got chewed out, it was probably for good reason—move on and learn from this experience. There is mutual respect on both sides and I think most would agree.
When I was in the National Guard though, I did wear a Cadet rank. Being in an Infantry Battalion, we were often confused with Officers and NCO’s since most of the soldiers had never interacted with cadet before.
Here, where the rules were blurred. I often had NCO’s try to assert their rank on me, with little to no results.
As a Cadet, you were truly the gray man. The commands of “push”, and “beat your face” did nothing more than signal any wondering Cadet to leave the area immediately—often with much success.
The NCO’s eventually got clever though, and often had the XO’s conduct their smoking sessions of us as a weird Officer privilege not found anywhere else in the Army.
All in all, good times!
You see, any Junior Officer worth his weight will acknowledge the fact that NCO’s run the military. Infantry Officer’s normally have a fair amount of respect for their NCO counterparts—much in part because of our interactions with quality NCO’s in IBOLC and Ranger School, where rank does not matter.
I’ve been chewed out by my Company First Sergeant for a mistake that I clearly overlooked from one of my Squad Leaders during the patrolling portion of one of our field training exercises. I’ve got to say that instead of getting my feelings hurt, I was actually humbled by the fact that this NCO cared enough about me to make the correction in the first place.
I would NEVER, in a million years, even fathom trying to lock up anyone over the rank of Sergeant, even for the most egregious of mistakes—much less a Command Sergeant Major. This is the quickest way to find yourself in the S3 shop, filing paperwork and fetching coffee for the Ops NCO’s.
Look, I’ve seen Captains get their assess handed to them by senior NCO’s and for good reason. If the LT got chewed out, it was probably for good reason—move on and learn from this experience. There is mutual respect on both sides and I think most would agree.
When I was in the National Guard though, I did wear a Cadet rank. Being in an Infantry Battalion, we were often confused with Officers and NCO’s since most of the soldiers had never interacted with cadet before.
Here, where the rules were blurred. I often had NCO’s try to assert their rank on me, with little to no results.
As a Cadet, you were truly the gray man. The commands of “push”, and “beat your face” did nothing more than signal any wondering Cadet to leave the area immediately—often with much success.
The NCO’s eventually got clever though, and often had the XO’s conduct their smoking sessions of us as a weird Officer privilege not found anywhere else in the Army.
All in all, good times!
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Any Officer worth his weight.... therein lies the crux, sir. I have met many an officer not worth their rifle's weight, let alone worth their own.
Now, I will say that despite the number of lousy Officers I have met, they are *still* in the minority - and by a large margin. But that doesn't mean they aren't out there.
Now, I will say that despite the number of lousy Officers I have met, they are *still* in the minority - and by a large margin. But that doesn't mean they aren't out there.
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A CSM chewing out a LT in public? the answer is a one word answer: UNPROFESSIONAL. You just don't do it. In fact, you shouldn't even do it to a junior enlisted, that is just bad leadership.
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Respect is the key word. Respect of rank of course and also respect for experience. No matter who is plumbing up who it should be done in private! No one should be called out in front of others regardless of rank. Of course during training, training personnel may use this as a training opportunity for the class.
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Not a LT with a CSM, but the one time I saw a CPO chew out an Ensign in public it was a question of safety. The Ensign gave an order that we all knew was wrong, the Chief stepped in and said "Belay that!" The Ensign told us to proceed. Yea, the Ensigns day did not end well, and we did not do what he had told us to. The job got done, the Chief's way.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Out of all the services, It seems like the Navy has the most authority / trust in their senior NCOs. The Marines are a close second. In the Army, SFCs are respected. In the Marines, Gunnys are feared. In the Navy, Chiefs are.... Chiefs. And NOBODY fucks with a Chief.
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PO1 Kevin Dougherty
In the CG and Navy, the Senior NCOs pretty much run the ship as far as the day to day stuff goes. As a PO-1 (E-6) I was XPO of a small unit, and LPO, (Leading Petty Officer for you lubbers,) for the Electronics Department on my ship. With the exception of the Engineering and Deck departments, that was true for the other departments as well. When a JO was assigned to a department, the CO made it abundantly clear that they were there to listen, learn and assist. I have to say that with one notable exception they did it very well. Some were actively involved, and some pretty much just signed off on whatever I handed them.
We had a policy, well I had one anyway, with most tasks that if someone saw something they thought unsafe they could call a halt, even if they were not sure. Things happen too fast, especially when working with machinery, over the side or in fowl weather. We all accepted certain risks, but life is too precious to take unnecessary ones that could have been prevented.
We had a policy, well I had one anyway, with most tasks that if someone saw something they thought unsafe they could call a halt, even if they were not sure. Things happen too fast, especially when working with machinery, over the side or in fowl weather. We all accepted certain risks, but life is too precious to take unnecessary ones that could have been prevented.
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There is a difference between on the spot corrections and chewing out. Anyone can and is responsible to do on the spot corrections as they are found. Rank has no privilege over being corrected.
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I had to correct a junior officer or two in my career. I always did it respectfully and in private. The only time to make it loud and in public is if it is a matter of life or death. Of course the junior officer could disagree with me and take it up with the BC. That was usually an eye opening experience for the junior officer!
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In my 10 years of service I’ve never seen or heard of this happening (save for one situation that involved one of my father’s LTs. That LT was the son of a division CSM so go figure.)
In MEDCOM I haven’t had much occasion to talk to with CSMs but on the few occasions I have they have been extremely professional. I’m not surprised because that’s what CSMs do, they are the standard bearers. Most CSMs have mastered the art of giving an “order” to JOs.
However, an LT should not and can not allow themselves to be disrespected by subordinates (which the CSM technically is). A public “ass chewing” of an NCO/officer is rarely warranted….praise in public, correct in private. If the LT is that much of an issue, the CSM should talk to his/her boss who will assuredly fix the issue.
Sometimes, as an LT, you may have to stand up to SNCOs who might try to bully you or your soldiers. I had a CSM who was a patient and he would “bully” the LPNs (E4 and below) on our floor to get special treatment. When you are a patient, your rank is irrelevant. The medical team is in charge of your care. I requested to take care of him during his stay and I was able to 1)Appeal to his professional NCO pride day and 2) Give him “orders” relating to how his hospital stay will go.
In MEDCOM I haven’t had much occasion to talk to with CSMs but on the few occasions I have they have been extremely professional. I’m not surprised because that’s what CSMs do, they are the standard bearers. Most CSMs have mastered the art of giving an “order” to JOs.
However, an LT should not and can not allow themselves to be disrespected by subordinates (which the CSM technically is). A public “ass chewing” of an NCO/officer is rarely warranted….praise in public, correct in private. If the LT is that much of an issue, the CSM should talk to his/her boss who will assuredly fix the issue.
Sometimes, as an LT, you may have to stand up to SNCOs who might try to bully you or your soldiers. I had a CSM who was a patient and he would “bully” the LPNs (E4 and below) on our floor to get special treatment. When you are a patient, your rank is irrelevant. The medical team is in charge of your care. I requested to take care of him during his stay and I was able to 1)Appeal to his professional NCO pride day and 2) Give him “orders” relating to how his hospital stay will go.
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To help avoid this situation in the first place...when I signed into a unit as an officer, immediately after my office call with the BCO I made a point to have an office call with the Bn CSM...to demonstrate respect for his position & begin a solid working relationship. I also made it a point to stop in for occasional discussions...requests for mentorship. Also, when the CSM walked into my troop area or S3 shop I always popped up to the position of modified parade rest...again to show respect for his position as senior enlisted advisor to the BN/Sqn Cdr. You cannot imagine how many times that relationship benefitted me later when I needed support...or I managed to step in crap myself. I always had that CSM ally & it benefitted the men & women under me when I needed to make something happen for them.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
I think a lot of young Officers can benefit from your example. By the time they make CPT, they usually have it figured out, but having that 1SG and CSM on your side can be a wonderful thing.
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Yes it is wrong, unprofessional, highly inappropriate, and possibly insubordinate. That's true within the military and civilian sector. Never redress a senior in front of the rank and file. Even between an officer and NCO.
That said, everybody makes mistakes; and good leaders should not only depend on, but respect their subordinates -- particularly the senior ones -- and encourage them to bring any mistakes (and suggestions) to their attention as soon as possible. Personally, I'd suggest asking for a moment in private, or going to them, then ask for permission to speak freely. There's also decorum and demeanor, but a lot depends on other factors such as the age and maturity between the two.
That said, everybody makes mistakes; and good leaders should not only depend on, but respect their subordinates -- particularly the senior ones -- and encourage them to bring any mistakes (and suggestions) to their attention as soon as possible. Personally, I'd suggest asking for a moment in private, or going to them, then ask for permission to speak freely. There's also decorum and demeanor, but a lot depends on other factors such as the age and maturity between the two.
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The Lt should be addressed in private in respect to the rank. However Lt's can be annoying children!!!
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As described, this would be poor leadership. The golden rule on this is, "praise in public, criticize in private." Junior leaders, especially LTs, need to make their own way in establishing themselves with their troops and a senior leader publicly undermining them is not good for the unit, so the CSM would be out of line here by a wide margin. There is also the not so small fact that the LT actually outranks the CSM, though any LT foolish enough to even try to "light up" a CSM in public (or even in private) would be in for a bad day, and deservedly so.
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