Posted on Jun 29, 2021
Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?
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Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
Posted in these groups: 
Professional Development
Respect
Professional Development Respect
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
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I have only seen on CSM do that and he ended up at the Post Commanders Carpet I stood there as a new SPC4 I could not believe he was tearing my LT up. I started to say something to the CSM and was told by the CSM to keep my shit face closed. Needless to say someone saw it came by where we were standing and got our names. the next day i was told to press and shine my boots and report to the Post Commander at 13:00.
I did as I was told and showed up all spit and polish, my LT was there and the CSM, the CSM was chewed out by the Post Commander and was told to apologies to the LT, and he did. The LT was told to stand up for himself and use his rank. I was called up to his desk and he asked me why i did not speak up for my LT, I told him I tried to, but the CSM said some choice words to me Sir. He asked me what the CSM told me and I stayed quite the CG asked me what was wrong i ask him can I speak Freely. I was told I could, and I told the GC what the CSM said to me.
The CSM was told he could not talk to lower rank like that then the CG asked the CSM how long he had served and the CSM said about 28 years Sir, the CG said I see. About 2 weeks later to CSM got retirement orders. Boy I was glad to see our BN CSM leave.
I did as I was told and showed up all spit and polish, my LT was there and the CSM, the CSM was chewed out by the Post Commander and was told to apologies to the LT, and he did. The LT was told to stand up for himself and use his rank. I was called up to his desk and he asked me why i did not speak up for my LT, I told him I tried to, but the CSM said some choice words to me Sir. He asked me what the CSM told me and I stayed quite the CG asked me what was wrong i ask him can I speak Freely. I was told I could, and I told the GC what the CSM said to me.
The CSM was told he could not talk to lower rank like that then the CG asked the CSM how long he had served and the CSM said about 28 years Sir, the CG said I see. About 2 weeks later to CSM got retirement orders. Boy I was glad to see our BN CSM leave.
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Lesson from leadership training to prepare us to take on our duties as NCOs.
Praise in public criticize in private. If you feel a need to tear down someone in front of the troops you have already lost control of the situation.
Praise in public criticize in private. If you feel a need to tear down someone in front of the troops you have already lost control of the situation.
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I would suspect that the LT’s have already been given a forewarning regarding whom the CSM answers… How the CSM chooses to “discuss” with the LT any issues will probably happen in one of two ways, one, “I need a moment of your time”, or two, “You, the BC and I have a mtg now scheduled at 1630, don’t miss it!”
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we all know the csm has the experience, the seniority to express himself . but to do so publicly undermines the respect, or not, for the chain of command . the csm lost emotional control of himself and should be, privately, accountable for it . but how is the damage going to be controlled ?
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I've seen it happen in the Corps. Generally the Sergeant Majors would do that in front of anyone. He'd take the young Lt. aside and tell him what he'd done wrong. And in every case I've seen the Lt. was smart enough to just say "Thank you Sergeant Major. Fact is neither one of the needs to turn it into a pissing contest.
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First I do not think a CSM would ever do that in view of any other soldier... Second, whatever reason the CSM has for admonishing the LT, the proper way would have been to bring the issue uo to the superior commander as I do not know of an LT position that would have a CSM as the enlisted member. In the Infantry for example a CSM is a Battalion Rank, and any LT would be a low-level Staff member at best with a chain of command of several levels between the Battalion Commander who the CSM is assigned to.. So taking the issue to the LT's immediate superior would be the proper way to deal with it... I have many associates today that were Major, Lt Colonel & Colonels, as well as many CSM's and they all agree with this...
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I knn my own it’s late, a LT would never try to lock up a CSM. As you said, a CSM should mentor a LT not lambaste them. Just as every LT will have an office call with the CO, so should they with the CSM just before or after. This should never happen from either front.
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ALWAYS Reprimand in private Praise in Public, be professional, never get personal and keep a lid on your temper.
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I did 22 years. Left as a SFC. Unless there is a safety issue being broken, neither should “ be chewing one another” in front of troops. Both lose respect by not handling the situation professionally. “IF” there is a safety issue with a weapon or truck a short burst is needed. Troops get the wrong idea that yelling is proper & professional, when it is neither. Calling one to the side for other than a safety issue and stating “Let us discuss this at another time in private”. Is professional protocol. I NEVER saw nor heard of a CSM and a LT having a confrontation. CSM has close to 2 decades of military training under their belt. They are held to a very high standard to wear than rank.
LY May have been previous Enlisted and knows how much the CSM has gone through to become CSM, highly respected by all enlisted. I never heard one ever yelling. Troops do not usually screw up around that rank.
SFC served proudly 1992-2015
LY May have been previous Enlisted and knows how much the CSM has gone through to become CSM, highly respected by all enlisted. I never heard one ever yelling. Troops do not usually screw up around that rank.
SFC served proudly 1992-2015
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Never known ANY Lt to lock up an E-9 at any level. If an E-9 is chewing out an Lt it’s probably because they deserved it. That would never happen to a CMSgt in the AF.
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