Is a standard black and white?

I'm with SGT Michael Davis on this it not right period. How would like to be in there shoes just getting done with a mission that lasted 24 hours, then finally get a chance to eat but can't because you're dirty and haven't shaven. That's not right for anybody to treated that way I don't care what your rank is.

We went without chow. The Ugandans wouldn't let us in

Who hasn't been told they weren't allowed into the DFAC because their uniform was sweaty and dirty? It happened to us all the time both tours in Iraq.. Just one of the many reasons so many soldiers are disillusioned with the military and its leadership..

This is not a new issue in the Army. In terms of the "25 years ago this was easier "comment GEN Patton was notorious for instituting a similar standard in his chow halls in North Africa.similarly, in the civil war there is a houmous story in CO Aytch where he attempts to submit a leave form multiple times through his chain of command, and is rejected because the paper is dirty. The implicit question here is what purpose do these policies have? And if those objectives are upheld while allowing dirty post op personnel into a DFAC then why are they being applied in these cases?
To me the answer is simple; a lack of leadership on the chain of command to transmit the intent of the order given. I was a paratrooper and that ideally was the central core of all orders because it allows an individual to take initiative to obtain an objective in a changing environment if he knows what the desired end state is. Too often I saw this portion of orders not given the time and attention it deserved. And it sounds a little crazy to apply this to something like a DFAC reg but it acts as a test case for not combat situations. But this requires effort on the part of bith the officer and NCO chain and sadly that is very lacking in today's force. All to often the easy solution is used because the harder way is not properly rewarded. END OF REMARKS

Haha how could anyone not love infantrymen? Thank you for your response SFC Josh Simpson, I knew you'd choose common sense first.

Downright motivating.

Had a similar situation this last time deployed. We were out for 8 days, and stopped by "the big base" on our way for fuel and supplies. They held chow for us which was awesome. but if we had only had 10 min i wouldn't have even thought of not letting them eat. We had a rough 8 days and I was talking to my COC with my 8 day beard. There was never even a comment about it because we were out doing our jobs, and everyone knew that as soon as we got back to our camp everyone would be in regs. I feel like i would have a hard time not losing my mind on someone had they refused them food or gave them grief for appearance.

Great feedback SSG!!

Not sure how Army Regs are written (I'm Air Force, but as a JTAC, it seems like my job really is just making SgtMaj's go crazy), in the Air Force we have these "cut and dried" AFI's (Air Force Instructions) - they are binding, and they are the rules, no matter how stupid they might seem in context... Yet, they are all derived from Policy decisions (specifically, Air Force Policy Directives, AFPDs). These are intentionally vague in some cases and are designed as the guidance for commanders in the *reasons* for the given standards so they are enforced intelligently. Of course, most Sr. NCOs have never read them; they read into the "rule of the law" - which is often intentionally subjective in how its written - and then fall back on an RHIP mentality for their attitude towards enforcement.

I implore my troops to get familiar with the reasons for all of those regulations. If you just execute the letter of law without knowing why, you have no business even having your own cerebral cortex; we'll replace you with a superior robot just as soon as its cost effective.

And lastly, I terribly miss being a JTAC at Bragg. Most fulfilling professional job ever...

Damn straight. This happened on several occasions coming back late from RCP or other extended missions. Eat now, worry later.

So, I had a couple questions for clarity on my statement

So, here's your war story.....because, everyone wants to hear a war story!

Hit (Iraq) was a war torn hot spot where we (TF Spartan - 1/36 Infantry) had contact by 1030 damn near daily but was not so far (about an hour) from the protection and luxurious amenities found at Al Asad Airbase. There was such a contrast in our conditions that we used it as a break for our warriors to have an opportunity to spend money or have a meal without interruptions of mortars/rockets. When I had incoming Soldiers, if we didn't have an op, I'd try to get on the patrol to go pick them up..... On one patrol, I noticed the guys would strategically get in line at the green beans coffee - coming off patrol funky, filthy, sweaty, nasty just to share the "life outside the wire" with those that had opportunity to go swimming and go for seconds at the dfac.....one specific patrol I remember that sticks out, we went to Al Asad after coming from OP Peanut and we were pretty dirty, we parked our vehicles in the parking lot of the coffee shop (I think it was green bean coffee) and one of the leadership there came out of the coffee shop holding his macchiato telling the gunners there's no reason to be driving around with a weapon on the vehicle......the gunners all looked at him and in unison shook their heads while taking off their harnesses, I guess he realized he was talking to Soldiers from "out there" and walked away without saying anything else....so yeah, let that kid eat some chow, some hot chow, and if he's still hungry, fire up the dang stove.

CSM Uhlig,

Al Asad was heaven! Their transient tents and shower facilities were so nice I didn't want to leave.

I remember when my line company stopped at COB Speicher in Dec 06..... when I saw that place, to be honest, I was confused, amazed, and then pissed. I didn't even know there was fast food joints in Iraq until that moment lol. No one ever stopped us from eating chow during my time as a line medic, but the times they would, we made sure the look on our face made sure to emote we would cut their throats. :)

That said, we also didn't push the issue. On an expedition at Camp Taji to see if I could get grub to take out with us on those 18 hour patrols I found out that I could mass order to-go plates 24 hours a day. When we'd roll in off mission, while everyone else PCMSed and what not, I'd grab the RTO and we'd steal a stryker or LMTV and go get 33 to-go plates and an accompanying crate of gatoraids. It didn't matter of the DFAC was closed or not. To be honest, THAT is the best way to do it because no one actually WANTS to be around cooks. :) (just kidding guys)

Hahahaha you gentlemen are hilarious!

Anyone who would not let them eat...is wrong.

This may seem great in theory, but I disagree. When in the mountains patrolling all day and getting in TIC's the last thing anyone is worried about is shaving. Once done for the day it's Security, Wipe weapons, grab an MRE baby wipe the essentials and attempt to get a few hours of uninterrupted sleep. I'm sure there are many different opinions on this, but depending on what you are doing there are far more important things than making sure you don't have a scruffy face. One could also make the "water conservation" argument, but it doesn't really matter. Mission safety and accountability first, the other stuff will fall in place.

To Go boxes? Why not save the taxpayer some money and let them eat on dishes that can be washed... Let the guys have their hot meal so they can feel more refreshed. It would definitely boost their morale.

Proverbs 3:27 (NIV) "Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to act."

SSG Justin Miracle you disagree with what?

Capt Jeff S. i dont think ive ever seen a box on deployment labeled fragile, that crap will get tossed and broken in a minute. Having disposable ware and plates will also prevent the spread of yuck. Having anything outside an MRE is good enough, nobody cares for real plates or silverware

Good point. GySgt (Join to see) I wasn't thinking about troops eating on ceramic dishes but rather hard plastic dishes and bowls that can be dropped without breaking. It's been awhile (14 years since I retired) and I really couldn't remember what we ate on when we were at a fob chow hall.

As an aside, I work at a grassroots fest as a volunteer and it's just a bunch of hippie types playing music they wrote. I get to eat with the musicians and grassroots staff. The hippie chicks most of which are volunteers do the cooking... and they make some really good stuff. The musicians and festival goers are a rather unique bunch because many of them smoke like chimneys, drink like fish, and eat healthy LOL.

The grassroots fest organizers are very green conscious and so where they have their hot meals set up, it's very much set up like a field mess. They have a line that you go through just like the chow hall and you have the option of picking up a paper plate or plastic plate to eat on. They have a makeshift wash station set up for cleaning your plates and utensils when you're done eating. I usually pick up a plastic plate and opt to wash it just to be less wasteful. The grassroots people do a pretty good job with their efficient field kitchen set up, and even take the trouble to compost the paper plates and biodegradeable plastic utensils along with the food scraps. But I totally get what you're saying and understand the military is more concerned with convenience, sanitation, etc.

Your answer cleared up some cobwebs and now that I think about it, we probably were eating on paper with plastic utensils. : )

Lol well yes I could see how you not backing down to anyone regardless of rank being a valid reason for you not getting promoted. Of course rank isn't everything and it is very important to stand up for what is right. It's unfortunate this type of scenario has happened to so many.

I am so glad this came across the way I wanted it to, especially because I truly value what senior leaders like yourself think about me as a leader. I try to be open to being wrong and growing from it COL Vincent Stoneking and for this topic, I really looked forward to input from senior leadership as well as junior NCOs and Soldiers.
As always, thank you for the feedback and support sir.

The term that was being used in a different thread was "selective disobedience", though as I stated there, I prefer "prioritization." Not because of a real difference, but because it is more acceptable from a messaging point of view.

There are many things in the Army. They all have some level of importance/logic. Often they conflict. When they conflict, leaders need to be able to assess the situation and determine what is MOST important in the situation.

A blind insistence that ALL regulations and policies are important, and must thus be followed at all times is EXACTLY the same as saying that nothing is more important than anything else. Which means that NOTHING is important.

Given that they often conflict, that means you (the corporate "you", obviously NOT SSG V. Michelle Woods in this case) are ok with EFFORT as opposed to RESULTS.

At the end of the day, what leaders are paid for is to make decisions that lead to good results.

(Oh, I would feed the Soldiers. If the boot is SAFE in the environment in question, o for it.)

That's brilliant sir, and I feel your explanation really puts this whole thing into perspective.