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Soldiers just completed a 32-hour mission on the road. They get to a tiny FOB in Iraq and have 12 minutes left to grab food before the chow hall closes. The Soldiers are not freshly shaved and cannot easily access their personal hygiene items therefore technically out of regulation. Would you enforce the standard and make the Soldiers immediately go shave or would you not enforce the standard and let the Soldiers go eat?
With so many responses on RP about how we don’t have the right to pick and choose which standards we enforce, what would you do?
With so many responses on RP about how we don’t have the right to pick and choose which standards we enforce, what would you do?
Standards
Common sense
Army Regulations
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 116
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People in uniform that never leave the FOB and, in some cases, TCNs that are there for "security" don't understand and probably don't really care. All they're worried about is their paycheck or getting back to their spank tank to play their xbox.
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SFC Stephen Carden
Just so you know MSG Brad Sand , I happen to know that it HAS been an armored vehicle. This, you understand, is not PERSONAL experience, but I happened to be in a rather free spirited SP Arty unit in my youth and things become rather obvious. Let's just leave it at that.
Wow. A guy goes on leave for a week and what does he come back to?
Wow. A guy goes on leave for a week and what does he come back to?
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SFC Stephen Carden
MSG Brad Sand , in retrospect, I deeply regret subjecting you and all others following this post to that information. Some things, I now realize, are better left unsaid. Having said that, I will also point out that I did not initially use the words "spank" and "tank" together, nor did I feel the need to clarify to our non-Army/Marine brethren and sistren (is that a word?) that the aforementioned "spank tank" was not, in fact, an armored vehicle of any kind but that the use of the word "tank" was more in the large container sense.
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SFC Stephen Carden
I have been advised by council that I will in no way be held responsible for my previous post because I did not mention any names, nor did I specify the unit or the type of tracked vehicle involved. Incidentally, my counsel has not yet passed the North Carolina bar but he assures me that mail-order paralegal training that he found on the back page of the local free newspaper is quite sufficient to advise me in this matter.
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I would also contend that a dirty unshaven Soldier in this scenario needs to eat more than one who is in a clean uniform and freshly shaven.
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Greetings, SSG Woods! I love your questions because they present real life scenarios. In response to this question (i.e., Is a standard black and white?), as a JAG Officer I can tell you that I am unfamiliar with a "black and white world." In my world, there is no such thing. I live in a world of grey where there is a waiver for everything. I just need to find the right person to sign the document(s). Rock on!
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
Awesome response Col (Join to see)! Very rare to get insight from a JAG officer, thank you sir!
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The Standards should never preclude the idea of our two top priorities. Mission-first, Troops-always. Those who would put a standard before these principles should perhaps re-evaluate their ability to lead.
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In this scenario, if you don't let the soldiers eat, you are a POG a-hole and should be required to ruck up and leave the wire with them next time. After you recover from a well deserved beating.
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According to regulations, you do not let them eat.
According to common sense and rationale thought, you let them eat in the chow hall or at a minimum, let them get food from the chow hall and eat it somewhere else.
If by tiny FOB, you mean company position or smaller, you change the regulations to allow troops returning from patrol to eat in the chow hall if the chow hall is closing in 30 minutes or less. You do not want the troops on patrol worrying about returning to base in time to hygiene and eat in the chow hall over situational awareness.
At the end of the day most troops can hygiene in less than 5 minutes which would allow 7 minutes to make it the chow hall and grab food and eat. Everyone went through some sort of basic training where time to eat was minimal.
In my opinoin, that regulation is more suited to large FOBs where on the go meals can be made and waiting for troops who cannot make the chow hall times due to duties.
According to common sense and rationale thought, you let them eat in the chow hall or at a minimum, let them get food from the chow hall and eat it somewhere else.
If by tiny FOB, you mean company position or smaller, you change the regulations to allow troops returning from patrol to eat in the chow hall if the chow hall is closing in 30 minutes or less. You do not want the troops on patrol worrying about returning to base in time to hygiene and eat in the chow hall over situational awareness.
At the end of the day most troops can hygiene in less than 5 minutes which would allow 7 minutes to make it the chow hall and grab food and eat. Everyone went through some sort of basic training where time to eat was minimal.
In my opinoin, that regulation is more suited to large FOBs where on the go meals can be made and waiting for troops who cannot make the chow hall times due to duties.
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CSM Mike Maynard
Might be a lexicon thing between Army/Marines sir - when we use the term "regulation" - it has a very specific meaning and is different than "policy", "procedure", "rule", etc.
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Capt Jeff S.
Common sense is the trump card you play in a situation like that. That's a leadership judgment call. And if the leader's leaders are worth their salt, they would back the judgment call.
If anyone were to make a fuss over something like this (i.e., letting your guys eat at the chow hall when they just got out of the field in a combat theater and needed a shave), I would imagine it blowing back in their face. It would make me question their judgment and they would be the one in the wrong for not putting the troops' welfare first.
If anyone were to make a fuss over something like this (i.e., letting your guys eat at the chow hall when they just got out of the field in a combat theater and needed a shave), I would imagine it blowing back in their face. It would make me question their judgment and they would be the one in the wrong for not putting the troops' welfare first.
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Capt Gardea Christian
At a smaller base, yes. At the larger bases (at least in Afghanistan, Helmand Province specific), that is not the case. That is why to go meals were implemented to allow troops to still get food from the dining facilities without having to shave and hygiene. I may not necessarily agree with that, but it provides an alternative to the troops having to eat MREs because they were on a mission.
(to play devil's advocate) In today's combat environment, it is reasonable to believe that a troop can shave and get to the chow hall before it closes. Thank God for electric razors and Nair.
(to play devil's advocate) In today's combat environment, it is reasonable to believe that a troop can shave and get to the chow hall before it closes. Thank God for electric razors and Nair.
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So I have always been told that regulations are for the GUIDANCE of the Commander and are not chiseled into stone tablets. A good Commander applies a dash of regulations, a dollop of common sense, and a heaping spoonful of experience into every decision he or she makes. Several posters said it already, but clearly this is a prioritization issue. What is more important: clean-shaven but hungry troops or unshaven but fed? I gotta tell you, I work with SOF troops from all services, and I would hate to be the guy that told any of them that they couldn't come in the chow hall after a 32-hour mission. Dude. It would be ugly. Now, if we were at Ft Bragg and a guy tried to come in the chow hall unshaven, then turn him away because the standards are posted and there is no good reason why he couldn't have shaved. Downrange, however, is different. We don't all have fobbit hours and fobbit access to hygiene facilities and fobbit access to the PX. There are real guys outside the wire actually fighting the war who don't have Salsa night and USO shows to get to. Call me crazy, but shouldn't THEY be the priority? Better yet, leave the chow hall open 24-hours so guys coming off patrol can just go when they can go. That is how we did it in AFG (on a SOF compound). There wasn't hot food all night, but they did put the leftovers form dinner out and there was a microwave. There were also sandwiches, fruit, cereal, etc. So no matter what time a group rolled in, they could always get something to eat. I once heard it took an average of 10 support troops to support one infantryman. Nobody said they couldn't be surly about it, I guess. Oh, and if the term "fobbit" offends you, then you probably are one.
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SFC Stephen Carden
CSM Mike Maynard , you are, of course, right. However, a commander has a great deal of latitude. The thing is, in a situation like this, the Commander's intent should be taken into account. His guidance was that patrons of the DFAC should be in proper uniform and clean-shaven, but his intent was not to deny food to those who were in situations as described above. The DFAC manager or whoever would deny entry to those Soldiers should understand that the commander's intent and the commander's guidance sometimes contradict each other. No commander can possibly foresee every situation. This is where common sense comes in. This is where doing the right thing and being prepared to defend that decision come in. No commander in his right mind would have a problem letting combat troops into a DFAC after coming off a patrol whether they were clean-shaven or not.
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SFC Stephen Carden
SSG V. Michelle Woods , I am so glad you get my snarky sense of humor. I unintentionally come across as an a-hole most of the time, but that is not my intention at all.
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SPC Dennis Mullins
Well you got to have a sense of humor in order to deal with sometimes stressful situation!
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CSM Mike Maynard
SFC Stephen Carden - great point! Well articulated!
You are really hitting upon Mission Command and how that comes into play with Cdr's Guidance/Intent and Policies and how we entrust/empower our subordinates to act on our behalf.
You are really hitting upon Mission Command and how that comes into play with Cdr's Guidance/Intent and Policies and how we entrust/empower our subordinates to act on our behalf.
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Standards MUST be enforced, but not at the cost of basic needs. If one must choose between beans and bullets or shave and a haircut, it is every NCO's duty to ensure the beans and bullets before they concern themselves with grooming standards. This does not mean that grooming standards are not enforced, it simply means that other things must be a priority.
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In the army, there are these wonderful things we like to call Priorities of Work. At this point of their mission, CHOW heavily outweighs personal hygiene. It's not about enforcing a standard, it's about allowing Soldiers to intake food to keep them alert in a combat zone. After chow is over, they can square away their hygiene and perform weapons maintenance and after ops PMCS on their vehicles.
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