Posted on Dec 24, 2016
Is it possible to take UCMJ action against an officer for disrespecting an NCO?
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UCMJ
UCMJ
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 30
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Maybe conduct unbecoming. It depends on the situation, but the supervisor of the officer has lots of tools to fix the behavior as well. We would like to think respect goes both ways, but the disrespect would have to be pretty extreme for it to actually be a ucmj issue. Use your nco support channel as I have seen officers removed for doing dumb things, especially LT's.
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PO1 Harry Champagne
just a question is the term BUCK SGT.still used? seem to remember in the early 60,s it was used t I.D. E-5 SGT.
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CPT Mark Gonzalez
PO1 Harry Champagne - in my experience it is an uncommon phrase. Maybe it is used more in other areas or services.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
PO1 Harry Champagne - depends it means bottom. So if you call as slick sleeve a buck Private then a 3 striper would be a buck Sergeant
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One officer that was charged with conduct unbecoming an Officer while I was stationed at Hanscom AFB, MA for His response to being stopped by the Security Police. The Base Commander not only took action against that Officer, a Captain but also brought Him to the Security Police Station and made Him apologize in front of everybody and told the Captain, "We don't want people like You in the Air Force, You are a disgrace to Your uniform. You even so much as sneeze I'll rip Your Captains bars off ! I'm also giving You a direct order, next time You talk to a Security Policeman , You will address Him as Sir, they are all superior to You. I'm sure that Captain felt about 2 feet tall at that point. The Base Commander also said, "You made a spectacle of a Security Policeman in front of everyone, how does it feel to have it happen to You ? You also better understand the Security Police represent Me, and carry out My orders, You show disrespect to them that is disrespect to Me ! Last problem we ever had with that Captain.
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COL (Join to see)
That’s a lot of shit talking. You can’t remove bars off an officer without a general courts marshal. That usually includes jail time. I’ve done it as a Company commander; it’s not that easy.
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As you stated it no, by reg the officer can not be charged with disrespecting an enlisted person...as least directly like an enlisted person could be.
Art 91 Insubordination only addresses "“Any warrant officer or enlisted member who" .
Officers can not be the actor in this article.
Art 133 - Conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman
“Any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman who is convicted of conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”
Elements.
(1) That the accused did or omitted to do certain acts; and
(2) That, under the circumstances, these acts or omissions constituted conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman.
That said,
my guess is, it would need to be public and completely unrelated to a actual or perceived "thing" the officer was correcting.
"Look SGT, I'll date your little sister anytime I want, shes 16, legal in this state and I only give her wine at the house, if you bring this up again, I'll stick you on motor pool guard for the next 10 weekends"
Otherwise, if the shenanigans were in response to a correction, even when done poorly, even in error, the senior officer that got wind of it would likely make the correction though counseling and negative reinforcement...lol
Art 91 Insubordination only addresses "“Any warrant officer or enlisted member who" .
Officers can not be the actor in this article.
Art 133 - Conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman
“Any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman who is convicted of conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”
Elements.
(1) That the accused did or omitted to do certain acts; and
(2) That, under the circumstances, these acts or omissions constituted conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman.
That said,
my guess is, it would need to be public and completely unrelated to a actual or perceived "thing" the officer was correcting.
"Look SGT, I'll date your little sister anytime I want, shes 16, legal in this state and I only give her wine at the house, if you bring this up again, I'll stick you on motor pool guard for the next 10 weekends"
Otherwise, if the shenanigans were in response to a correction, even when done poorly, even in error, the senior officer that got wind of it would likely make the correction though counseling and negative reinforcement...lol
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SFC (Join to see)
You forgot to add as long as the order is not immoral or unsafe. If you are being disrespected, document it. Be respectful at all times and take it higher
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MSgt Michael Lane
This is a clear case of PICK YOUR BATTELS this is one road you can’t come back on. If you start down this road you better be sure the disrespect is something you can’t get over because if you lose and possibly even if you win you can still lose, particularly if you are a junior NCO your life could be made hell.
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SSG Wayne Wood
Totally agree with the idea of picking your battles wisely. Remember these ways have a way of working themselves out eventually. One of the things I loved about the military in general is EVERYONE has a boss and answers to SOMEONE. An officer who abuses his authority on a regular basis won't go far. His superiors will note the unprofessionalism and it will come back to haunt him (I remember one incident in particular where a LTC showed great disrespect to a SGM; I learned through the grapevine - though it was never publicized - his OER suffered).
By the same token, we used to have a slogan, "Mission First - People Always!" We are in the people business - it's not a popularity contest but troops have ways of dealing with toxic leadership they don't respect. Just My Observation - not a recommendation or suggestion.
Bottom line - is these things work themselves out one way or another. As we also used to say, "Suck it up and drive on." If he isn't ordering you to do something illegal... One of the reasons I am so thankful for every time I had to stand at attention while my Drill Sergeant questioned my parentage...
By the same token, we used to have a slogan, "Mission First - People Always!" We are in the people business - it's not a popularity contest but troops have ways of dealing with toxic leadership they don't respect. Just My Observation - not a recommendation or suggestion.
Bottom line - is these things work themselves out one way or another. As we also used to say, "Suck it up and drive on." If he isn't ordering you to do something illegal... One of the reasons I am so thankful for every time I had to stand at attention while my Drill Sergeant questioned my parentage...
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
SSgt Wood, The fact the person was enlisted, Me wasn't the issue, the fact He had failed to comply with policy and directives, regulation and created a public disturbance through His conduct to a person with the authority to enforce those regulations was the issue. His conduct was documented on a DD Form 1569, Incident Complain Form and statement were taken by witnesses and also placed on AF Form 53, Security Police Desk Blotter, (the shift log) On a daily basis the Base Commander read these documents. This is one of those cases of confusing rank with authority and a clear cut case of misconduct IAW the UCMJ and was very effective due to the support from the Installation Commander.
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It'd have to be pretty serious before anything would come of it. Others with a lot more rank and experience than I have have already spoken to that.
The next point is for what? Wounded pride? I've had a few NCOs and one officer I'd like to have seen publicly humiliated for what I suffered (real or imagined) at their hands. However, unlike when a subordinate disrespects a superior, the discipline of the organization isn't affected when a superior disrespects a subordinate. Life isn't fair, but that's the way it is.
My recommendation is that if you have a situation you feel needs to be remedied, ask a couple peers about it, and if they agree that you/others have been/are being wronged, push it up the chain. If they tell you to get thicker skin, grow some leather. If you get nowhere through the chain, command climate surveys do get read.
Edit: I just wanted to add that I've had a great experience, and so far, the soldiers, airmen, officers, and NCOs I've served with have overwhelmingly been great. Don't want my post to sound like leaders suck.
The next point is for what? Wounded pride? I've had a few NCOs and one officer I'd like to have seen publicly humiliated for what I suffered (real or imagined) at their hands. However, unlike when a subordinate disrespects a superior, the discipline of the organization isn't affected when a superior disrespects a subordinate. Life isn't fair, but that's the way it is.
My recommendation is that if you have a situation you feel needs to be remedied, ask a couple peers about it, and if they agree that you/others have been/are being wronged, push it up the chain. If they tell you to get thicker skin, grow some leather. If you get nowhere through the chain, command climate surveys do get read.
Edit: I just wanted to add that I've had a great experience, and so far, the soldiers, airmen, officers, and NCOs I've served with have overwhelmingly been great. Don't want my post to sound like leaders suck.
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For that particular UCMJ action, no. Now, Conduct Unbecoming.....that's a different manner. But I caution you to use your Chain and have ALL your ducks/facts/statements/evidence lined up in a nice row. Good luck.
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SGT Randall Smith
Have you thought about telling the officer you think he is disrespecting you? He may not realize it. I had a Maj. in Germany who always called me Smitty. I hate Smitty. So I got so I would not answer him when he called, ignored him. He called me to his office and started chewing me out and ask why I was disrespecting a Maj. I told him my name was Smith, Spec. Smith, or Randy if he so liked, but not Smitty. He thought it was funny and said he did not realize I felt so strong about it. He never called me that again. The next year when I was up for E5 he was on the promotion board. He ask if I would answer to Sgt. Smitty. Said yes sir, I probably would, but I still would not like it. He passed me.
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Only if you want to be subjected to unsolicited ridicule and torment.
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SPC (Join to see)
I would agree depending on what happened. Sometimes leaders need to be knocked off their horse so to speak. Good for all of us to get a reality check once in awhile.
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LCDR (Join to see)
An interesting read, wasn't it Gunny? Those guys would be classified "Sea Lawyers" in the Corps.
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Conduct Unbecoming (Article 133) or Cruelty and Maltreatment (Article 93) but I would use your Chain first, sometimes I'm still surprised at the effect a word from a 1SG or SGM/CSM has on Officers.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
Yes, and in one case I can think of a Major who was a Commander of a Security Police unit I served in and He made a lot of bad decisions and messed over a Captain in the Unit and also a CMSgt (E9) This Commander was disliked by everyone in the unit from E2 up to 03. In the end with that and other incidents it reached a point where He was relieved of Command by a Lt General and ordered not to even set foot in the Security Police buildings for any reason. He and another Captain, His buddy in the unit who was also relieved and given the same orders were put in a small office cubicle and told this is where they would spend their days until their were gone and they had no duties except to stay out of the way. The Major was made to retire and the Captain made to leave the Air Force and within two week this had happened. The conduct these two officers were both involved in all caught up and cost them dearly. The Major at least had a career behind Him, the Captain didn't it just ended His potential career by traveling the wrong path with a poor leader.
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SGT Randall Smith
If it is not physical, just suck it up. One of you will be leaving and doing something like filling against him will follow you where ever you go.
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Not disrespect only, no. But hazing, conduct unbecoming a Marine, or something related to the wrong doing.
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SPC (Join to see)
The hazing would fall under Article 93 - Cruelty and Maltreatment. Conduct Unbecoming would fall under Article 133. Also have to say Sergeant, the Corps has some damn fine Warrant Officers in JAG.
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