Posted on Dec 22, 2019
Is it the right thing to do to follow every single regulation and admin process?
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I feel like too often shortcuts are taken to "execute the mission," and as a result, people are reprimanded, smoked, or counseled for disobeying a direct order from a superior ranking. For example Pvt Snuffy (feel sorry for whoever he is, being made an example out of in the worst situations, ha ha ha) is given his military driver's license and told to drive an LMTV in a convoy. He is not licensed on the vehicle, but "it's ok because there's an NCO as his TC." Another example is when Pvt Snuffy is performing a thorough PMCS (testing the attachments for the IHMEE, unreeling the winch for the Dozer, etc) and is told by his SL to stop what he's doing and just get the 5988 verified because everyone is waiting on him to go to lunch.
What should (s)he do in situations like these? My second example might not be as good as the first, but hopefully you get the point.
What should (s)he do in situations like these? My second example might not be as good as the first, but hopefully you get the point.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 19
Poor Pvt Snuffy... Least he's not missing limbs or has huge scars on his head... like so many others... they have problems.. count your blessings... I've driven many types of Army vehicles without licenses...
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We place our juniors, both officers and enlisted alike, in a lot of wrong situations like this where they have to decided risk/cost v. benefit. As a field grade, I would like to say I never do this but I am sure it has happened. In this case, if the PVT was not licensed and to be a TC you must be licensed, I would make the NCO drive. I have the rank to do that, not everyone does. Company commander does and should be leading from the front as should the 1SG but that is a perfect world.
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I feel bad for private snuffy.
I've read a lot of the responses blaming private snuffy. In reality you all need to be blaming his leadership. Private Snuffys leadership is setting him up for failure. He's given two shitty choices. Either "go against what the NCO says" or "break the rules". Either way, the leadership is to blame for private snuffy being put in a lose lose situation.
If you are seeing this happen to a private, you should go to your first line and let them know what's happening.
There is never a time when an NCO should give an order to a private that puts him in a lose lose scenario. It's 100% the leaderships fault, not the privates.
All of you NCOs and senior officers on here saying 'well private snuffy should read regulations blah blah' should take a hard look at yourselves. Understand how little private snuffy can actually do. Understand that the leadership needs to be corrected to better lead.
I've read a lot of the responses blaming private snuffy. In reality you all need to be blaming his leadership. Private Snuffys leadership is setting him up for failure. He's given two shitty choices. Either "go against what the NCO says" or "break the rules". Either way, the leadership is to blame for private snuffy being put in a lose lose situation.
If you are seeing this happen to a private, you should go to your first line and let them know what's happening.
There is never a time when an NCO should give an order to a private that puts him in a lose lose scenario. It's 100% the leaderships fault, not the privates.
All of you NCOs and senior officers on here saying 'well private snuffy should read regulations blah blah' should take a hard look at yourselves. Understand how little private snuffy can actually do. Understand that the leadership needs to be corrected to better lead.
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SSG Lyle O'Rorke
There are times and places for loss loss orders. Private snuffy charge that machine gun Or private snuffy I need your weapon now take off your mask for 15 seconds but don’t breathe.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
SSG Lyle O'Rorke - Not in peace time and not when the TC NCO has to have a license and should be driving instead of the PVT.
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SSG Lyle O'Rorke
MAJ Byron Oyler I ageee but there original statement that I was talking about was where the poster stated NEVER is there time for a loss loos order for a private. There is but not in this case
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SPC (Join to see),
Based on your example: PVT Snuffy needs to respectfully raise a flag and let his supervisor that he either not trained or improperly trained. If he was given a DA Form 348 without been properly trained it is his responsibility to bring it to his leadership attention. Like others has stated, he’s on the hook for any mischief that could potentially happen.
Regarding as following regulation... it is based on how much heat you can tolerate if all hell breaks lose. You don’t want to end on the loosing end.
Based on your example: PVT Snuffy needs to respectfully raise a flag and let his supervisor that he either not trained or improperly trained. If he was given a DA Form 348 without been properly trained it is his responsibility to bring it to his leadership attention. Like others has stated, he’s on the hook for any mischief that could potentially happen.
Regarding as following regulation... it is based on how much heat you can tolerate if all hell breaks lose. You don’t want to end on the loosing end.
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You must obey laws but regulations and processes are optional. Regulations and processes establish a standard method for meeting peacetime requirements. However, a commander has the flexibility to violate regulations and processes, if the mission/circumstances dictate. They also assume the risk for violating them. Usually, with a successful mission, there is no punishment. But, when the mission is less than successful, it will force everyone to defend the decision for violating regulations.
As to your examples: PVT Snuffy has a duty to inform his NCO that he is not licensed driving the LMTV but is willing to be licensed. If the NCO is licensed, then the NCO should conduct training on PMCS, vehicle operation and a driver's test prior to assigning the duty of driving. The main reason for this is 'safety.' However, if the mission dictates that this training is abbreviated and 'on the job,' then the NCO must inform his leadership and enable them to assume the risk.
For your second point, the horses are fed and watered before the rider! PMCS is performed for a reason, it is preventative. When a driver is told to stop performing PMCS by the SL, because everyone is waiting to go to lunch, then the driver can advise the SL that the TC and driver will 'catch-up' to everyone after completing PMCS. If the SL complains, then ask the SL to assist in the PMCS. However, my guess is that too many in the squad failed to perform a complete PMCS before going to lunch. This may come to bite in the form of a breakdown or accident.
As to your examples: PVT Snuffy has a duty to inform his NCO that he is not licensed driving the LMTV but is willing to be licensed. If the NCO is licensed, then the NCO should conduct training on PMCS, vehicle operation and a driver's test prior to assigning the duty of driving. The main reason for this is 'safety.' However, if the mission dictates that this training is abbreviated and 'on the job,' then the NCO must inform his leadership and enable them to assume the risk.
For your second point, the horses are fed and watered before the rider! PMCS is performed for a reason, it is preventative. When a driver is told to stop performing PMCS by the SL, because everyone is waiting to go to lunch, then the driver can advise the SL that the TC and driver will 'catch-up' to everyone after completing PMCS. If the SL complains, then ask the SL to assist in the PMCS. However, my guess is that too many in the squad failed to perform a complete PMCS before going to lunch. This may come to bite in the form of a breakdown or accident.
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As far as driving a vehicle your not qualified on. If Pvt Snuffy is given an order and it’s known that he’s not qualified then the responsibility falls on the person giving the order. It’s not like the Pvt can disobey an order. Is it extreme enough to be considered an unlawful order? Probably not. As far as the PMCS he should finish the task properly. You’ll never see an Army pilot stop in the middle of his preflight because someone is in a hurry. In my current job, of 30 years, I will comeplete my Locomotive inspections before I move them. I don’t care what anybody else wants.
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I learned a long time ago, the Phrase. Good initiative, but bad Judgement.. Something like this, takes a few mistakes before something nad happened. First aforementioned, if A Pvt isnt licensed to operate, repair, etc. Any piece of equipment, he is the first solider to make this known, it starts with him. Why is that important? Because if the PVT dosen't convey this pertinent information, From the Grass To the Brass will standing tall in front of someone trying to explain why there was a Injury, or casualty. So please. Take a second to think about that. It is understood that a pvt is motivated, and what's to help, but that Pvt has to understand good initiative, isnt always good judgment. Merry Xmas Carry on.
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You already know the right and wrong in these situations. Just be a man and own up to and defend your decision, keep learning, keep growing.
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