Posted on Jul 24, 2019
Is it within regulation to counsel a soldier for facial hair stubble even though he did shave that morning and proved it?
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Soldier shaves every morning, but his facial hair grows back pretty quick. By noon some stubble grows back. His NCOIC is aware of how fast his facial hair grows but because the unit’s CSM and 1SG noticed it and weren’t aware of it the NCOIC counsels him and makes him go shave again. Soldier has sensitive skin as it is. Shaving makes him break out, but he can’t get a shaving profile. He’s gotten denied multiple times. So Soldier signs the counsel statement because he’s fed up with the NCOIC switching up on him. Some days he wants to agree with the Soldier and other days he wants to kiss up to others and save face by pulling out counselings left and right. Is this within regulation to make a soldier shave twice a day? Thoughts?
Shaving
Professionalism
DA Pam 670-1
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 12
According to regulations, (paraphrasing) Soldiers will have a clean shaven and professional look at all times. So yes, it is within regs to order a Soldier to shave twice a day. I'm surprised the Soldier was denied a shaving profile if they break out from shaving.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC Marc W. Things like what? The original post was about a Soldier whose facial hair grows quickly enough that he has stubble before the end of the duty day, and shaving twice a day makes him break out.
It wasn't about whether
The race of the Soldier wasn't provided in the original post, although I didn't read every response to see if the original poster identified the Soldier's race.
Your post injected race into the discussion, so unless his race was identified that was an assumption.
Then, your response is a very vague, "Let's don't pretend things like this doesn't happen in the military." What "things" do you mean? I won't infer that you meant the 5 white Soldiers were discriminated against based on their race because they were denied a shaving profile, but I could see where someone could reach that inference.
There is a wave of claims that minorities are claiming racism, or pulling the "race card," where it isn't racism, but simply consequences of their action or inaction.
Even if the original poster states the Soldier was white in a subsequent post, there was no need to inject race into the discussion, and it was pulling the race card.
This doesn't mean your actions were deliberate, nor am I claiming you are a racist.
It wasn't about whether
The race of the Soldier wasn't provided in the original post, although I didn't read every response to see if the original poster identified the Soldier's race.
Your post injected race into the discussion, so unless his race was identified that was an assumption.
Then, your response is a very vague, "Let's don't pretend things like this doesn't happen in the military." What "things" do you mean? I won't infer that you meant the 5 white Soldiers were discriminated against based on their race because they were denied a shaving profile, but I could see where someone could reach that inference.
There is a wave of claims that minorities are claiming racism, or pulling the "race card," where it isn't racism, but simply consequences of their action or inaction.
Even if the original poster states the Soldier was white in a subsequent post, there was no need to inject race into the discussion, and it was pulling the race card.
This doesn't mean your actions were deliberate, nor am I claiming you are a racist.
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SFC Marc W.
1SG (Join to see) That third paragraph wasn't directed towards you, it was a response to another person.
But I will explain why I brought it up in the first place to bring this discussion to an end. Based on all my experience in several different duty stations, units, 2 MOSs, and anecdotal input from many individuals of varying skin color I've come away believing that there is an almost unwritten rule about those with a light skin complexion not getting shaving profiles. I'm also not the only person, by far, who sees and calls out the pattern.
My initial reference to skin color was based entirely on this and there does seem to be some legitimacy to it as well. SSG (Join to see)
But I will explain why I brought it up in the first place to bring this discussion to an end. Based on all my experience in several different duty stations, units, 2 MOSs, and anecdotal input from many individuals of varying skin color I've come away believing that there is an almost unwritten rule about those with a light skin complexion not getting shaving profiles. I'm also not the only person, by far, who sees and calls out the pattern.
My initial reference to skin color was based entirely on this and there does seem to be some legitimacy to it as well. SSG (Join to see)
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SSG (Join to see)
I completely agree that some times higher doesn’t have our backs and some times the best thing to do is break contact. I myself have some experience with this as well. This post was about my past experience and a current one that I witnessed myself from a fellow soldier. Which are almost the exact same. As far as the skin complexion goes for shaving profiles, sadly you are right that there is a pattern and does seem to be some legitimacy there. The Major who said this to me in the anecdotal experience was African American. I was shocked and appalled when she told me that. SFC Marc W.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC Marc W. So, you believe it is discrimination based on race, and not related to whether the physician believes the diagnosis warrants a profile?
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I'm not an expert on shaving, but it is not his fault that his facial hair does that, so why punish him? If there is proof he shaved already, that should suffice for the day. As a medical person, I advise his NCOIC to get out there and advocate for him with the medical team to get him taken care of with some documentation so he is not having to waste his, and the unit's, time shaving multiple times per day. Plenty of soldiers have shaving profiles for various reasons, and if his skin is sensitive and he is being made to irritate it unnecessarily throughout the day, a lot worse will result when he develops a service-connected condition upon ETSing that could have been avoided with a little bit of effort and compassion by his command. Just my personal and professional opinion.
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SGM Erik Marquez
Ma’am
I like your enthusiasm
But id ask you to read the ref and cite the part that states a SM is only required to shave once a day.
What you will find is the reg states the condition the SM’s face IOW the state of his shaved face must be, not what how often or how the SM must do be in compliance, Just that he must be in compliance during the duty day
I like your enthusiasm
But id ask you to read the ref and cite the part that states a SM is only required to shave once a day.
What you will find is the reg states the condition the SM’s face IOW the state of his shaved face must be, not what how often or how the SM must do be in compliance, Just that he must be in compliance during the duty day
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MSG Gary Eckert
SGM Erik Marquez - I feel a little like a barracks lawyer pointing this out; but, I agree with MAJ Karen Wall when it comes to requiring the soldier to shave multiple times during the day. Why there is some ambiguity in the terminology in paragraph 3-2a.(2)(b) that states the face clean-shave when in uniform, in that the regulation doesn't define clean shaven. All of paragraph 3-2 pertains to grooming policies and 3-2d. requires soldier to groom on a daily basis (notice it doesn't say at a minimum.) Para 3-2 is a punitive paragraph; however, I think you would have a hard time convincing your SJA to support a charge against a Soldier that is "clean shaven" in the morning and whose 5-o-clock shadow comes in at noon.
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SGM Erik Marquez
MSG Gary Eckert that was supposed to be a two part response
Part being leadership has to use so common sense, consider the mission, the reg intent, and the individual SM.
In 28 years 7 months i never made a SM shave twice a day.
Once, completely just before duty day was all I felt was needed, no matter appearances of a 2:30 shadow.
Yes I agree leaders can read the reg as written and pull an interpretation as you did.
But my point is, as written it is pretty clear “clean shaven while in uniform” clean being the word in contention
Ok
Clean
Would you be ok with a dress uniform “mostly clean”?
How about the dental tools used on you?
If inspection a piece of equipment in your field of work, would you accept that your solders cleaned it pretty much?
Clean in a reasonable persons understanding is pretty clear I think.
So I don’t think the reg reads and allows for a SM to be mostly clean shaven while in uniform
I do think a good leader can look at an individual,
Ensure the SM did the right thing immediately before the duty day and then counsel the SM that while on a normal duty day the 15:00 shadow would not be an issue, there will be times, say before a formal ceremony or meeting he would need to clean up his face to hold the clean shaven appearance required.
Now let’s get back to important stuff. Have a great day
Part being leadership has to use so common sense, consider the mission, the reg intent, and the individual SM.
In 28 years 7 months i never made a SM shave twice a day.
Once, completely just before duty day was all I felt was needed, no matter appearances of a 2:30 shadow.
Yes I agree leaders can read the reg as written and pull an interpretation as you did.
But my point is, as written it is pretty clear “clean shaven while in uniform” clean being the word in contention
Ok
Clean
Would you be ok with a dress uniform “mostly clean”?
How about the dental tools used on you?
If inspection a piece of equipment in your field of work, would you accept that your solders cleaned it pretty much?
Clean in a reasonable persons understanding is pretty clear I think.
So I don’t think the reg reads and allows for a SM to be mostly clean shaven while in uniform
I do think a good leader can look at an individual,
Ensure the SM did the right thing immediately before the duty day and then counsel the SM that while on a normal duty day the 15:00 shadow would not be an issue, there will be times, say before a formal ceremony or meeting he would need to clean up his face to hold the clean shaven appearance required.
Now let’s get back to important stuff. Have a great day
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