Is not paying rent, food, utilities, etc., a benefit received while on active duty (in addition to your pay)?

SGT Norman Cillo - SGT Norman, if you think officers run anything in the Army, then you missed a lesson at PLDC or WLC. NCOs should always push the limits of those parameters you mention. That's what good NCOs do. And they don't dismiss a problem because that is "officer business". Taking care of Soldiers is Always NCO business and wouldn't you agree that good chow is the number two way you take care of Soldiers? Number one being good, hard, realistic training.

Having spent years as an NCO and having served as an officer dedicated to the well being of the Army, it is my right and responsibility to "slam on NOCs" when I see the need. When was the last time you talked to the 1SG or CSM about the DFAC? That's your job!

To your final point. BAS is a benefit just as free food is. And both must be included when comparing our pay to civilian pay.

SSG Joseph Gross

PO2 Joan Feledy - In 1981 and 1984 for Marines, the not having to clean up after was not true. If you ever spent 30 day on mess duty, you would know what cleaning up is. Having to be at formation at 0330, working until they said you could go home, typically around 2100, with 1 day off each week. In 84, I then had to drive 20 miles home and back as I had just gotten married. I did not have the choice of just walking across the street to the barracks. If I ate at the chow hall I also had to pay for it.
I understand that this has changed, and in many locations, they now have civilians performing mess duty.

Sgt Edward Allen when not serving in the mess for 90 days, clean up after chow was fairly simple for the average sailor. Just take your tray up. I cleaned in the mess hall for 90 days and had grueling hours as well and then went back to engineering where our hours were just as bad, but loved it all. Not sure why you chose that part of my statement to reply to, but not having to make the meals and clean up after every meal was more of the point. When TAD to the mess decks, which almost all of us had to do at one time or another (in the Navy) yes you had to do those things, but if you were not a CS or MS you only did that for a short time.

I think the LTC hit the nail square on the head. Good job, Sir.

While in Korea, more often then not we didn't get off till 1900 or later not including all the time in the field. One of the guys I served with (AA in business math) did a estimate based off 3 months then 6 months while there and came to the conclusion that we made about $2-3 an hour with the over time and all other benefits including basic cost of medical, housing and food

work mans comp can be denied.....ie not following saftey proticals or following company polocies

We have some of the best health care and practitioners in the world. That being said,, if you suffer malpractice as a civilian at a local hospital, you have the ability to seek legal recourse whereas as a soldier in a medical center, you are lucky if you can get an apology.

SPC Craig Hill - I agree. I had to do back-to-back 2 week tours in Nam because the other engineer was sick. $105 a month for flight pay came out to about 25CTS per hour. As an NCO we were on COLA and could not eat in the mess hall. At 0400 I went to the club. They had NOTHING. I had a double rum and coke and went out and flew 88 hours. All I heard was "THIS IS A COMBAT ZONE" suck it up.

PO1 Cliff Heath - In every branch, enlisted Servicemembers receive an annual clothing allowance for clothing maintenance. Probably about $400 now.

LTC Joseph Gross - Very true LTC Gross. When I got out of the Marines in 1989, I was offered a computer programming position stating at 72,000. As a Sgt with over 8 years, I was getting 1244 + 350 BAQ + 110 ComRats (no COLA). each month. or 20,044 a year, as a computer programmer. I was also the NCOIC of the shop. Worked a minimum of 10 hours a day. And when in the field, I would due 18.

The last five years of my career I was home eight (8) months because BAH did NOT pay for housing in the Los Angeles area and the housing office told me it would be up to two years to get housing. I therefore moved my family to where my wife would have family support.
As commented elsewhere military works more than 40 hour weeks without overtime. On ship in port you will have duty every 3-6 days. This adds at least 8 working hours a week. At sea watch adds as much as 8 hours a day, with underway replenishment adding 6-8 hours a week.
If there is a fire in port I have seen the time the liberty party fought the fire on another ship for about 3 hours. As I remember we used some 500-800 of our OBA canisters.
This doesn’t begin to touch little goodies such as the need to make decisions that may kill your friends (I have been on both the giving and the receiving.)

I’m not sure when you shopped at the Commissary last, but I can say without hesitation that the Commissary now costs more than going to Walmart. Obama forced Commissaries to raise their prices since he wasn’t able to close them under his watch as President. He k ew by raising prices to the point it is cheaper to shop off military installations that it is only a matter of time before they are forced to close due to lack of participation by service members. He back doored us if you will. As for the Exchange it hasn’t been a real benefit for non deployed troops in decades.

CPT Jim Schwebach - That's wonderful to hear CPT, that somewhere in Texas, the people that live in Section 8 housing take care of it and the people responsible for maintaining it are also zealous about doing so... but in many of the metro-plexes around the country, Section 8 housing is so thoroughly abused, that's it's well beyond the budgets in many areas to take care of much needed maintenance and repairs. So it is detrimental to both those who have to live in these places and those who have to maintain them.

As a Fire Dept. Responder in one of this country's metro-plexes. during about half my 46 year tenure in that capacity, I had ample opportunity both in my own jurisdiction and in others, to visit and work with first responders in other areas and see first hand, Section 8 housing in many other locals. I can a sure you that in many cases the facilities are wanting.

Also during my 35+ years in the Military Services and having worked as a Fire Dept. Responder in those instances, I've also seen some military living quarters that weren't in such great shape either... partly due to the living habits of the occupants and partly due to over taxed maintenance and repair budgets.

Suffice it to say whether on the Military of Civilian side of the coin there is a spectrum of occurrence on a sliding scale between piss poor up-keep and living habits and optimum up-keep and living habits in the various locals of which we speak.

Ultimately IMHO it's the responsibility occupant of whatever the quarters in question, to keep same in clean/sanitary and livable condition ... after all none of us are/were living at the Waldorf Astoria, the Ritz-Carlton or Hilton while on a Military installation, so there are/were no maids, butlers or janitors to call upon for towels, pick-up the dirty laundry or to sling the mop, push the broom or run the vacuum cleaner!

Maybe Section 8 housing would be better off if they had 24/7 Firewatches and "sweepers" every night at 1700 .. Like the Major said a few posts back this is a conversation I prefer not to have with civilians

That would be the most hilarious thing in the world if Section 8 housing got inspected like the military.

Definitely right about the chow. I remember eating out a lot towards the end of my active duty...lol

SCPO Carl Wayne Boss - When I turned 10 I got an allowance. My dad and I opened a savings account. On Fridays when I got my allowance he and I went to the bank. He deposited half and gave me half. I was only allowed to use the savings for purchases he OK'd. For the most part, that was clothes, shoes, and school supplies.

At 14, I could legally work 20 hours a week in Arizona. I had to have a job. Dad charged me room and board. It worked out to 15 hours of my take home pay. I had to put 25% of what was left over into savings. If for some reason I didn't make enough during the week to cover room and board. It came out of my savings. I struggled, hustled, and worked extra and found every way I could to afford a car when I was 16. It was crappy old Toyota that was more bondo, than metal. Adam Sandler wrote a song about it (Piece od S__t Car). In comparison to my friends parents I thought Dad was a real prick.

At 17 he let me know that the day after HS graduation I was welcome to visit, but I wasn't going to live in his house anymore. When I was accepted to the Naval Academy, he cut me a huss for the 6 weeks between graduation and when I shipped out, but I had still had to pay room and board.

When I finished plebe summer, he sent me a check for all the room and board he charged me growing up, plus interest. I thought he was less of a prick. Then I graduated saw the struggles my peers in the fleet had learning to manage money. The light went on and my Dad was golden.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fw0OvKFKhw

Your Dad was a Prince among Men... more of us should have Dad's like that... but the sad fact is... we don't. My family had a family business, we all worked in that business... without pay.

The deal was as long as you worked, you had a place to sleep and 3 squares a day. Much to Dad's chagrin, Mom would always slip me and my brother and sister, a $20 dollar bill on Friday or Saturday Night and let us use a company truck to take a friend out on a date or to a movie.

Eventually each of us got a second part-time job to earn more pocket money.

After I graduated from High School, Dad said he'd start paying me (but never did). I continued to live in the mobile home along side our warehouses, accumulated a fleet of half a dozen pickups and a 5 cars of my own and worked for him until I got drafted for Vietnam.

When my Dad passed away, he left me $25,000 dollars, saying it was the years pay that he owed me for the year I worked after graduating High School. Color Me Surprised...

Thank you for saying what we all think! Great words!

SCPO Carl Wayne Boss - Those that don't go in the service are those on welfare, jail, food stamps ETC. One thing that has always stayed with me was what my principal told us in our senior class. If you ban save 10% of your income you will have a good life. hard to do when the kids came along but, at other times maybe 40%. Bottom line--ALWAYS pay yourself first.

[~7I think cowardice is the least reason that most civilians do not or did join the service. Greater concerns are not knowing when the balloon may go up, the hardship on your family, long days and alll of the other reasons that have been listed above alopng with giving up personal freedom. You and some others may have had the good fortune to serve in peace time but that was not and is not a guarantee, especially in today's geo- political environment The pay and benefits are not generous nor are they guaranteed. Yes you may get an additional stipend when you are assigned to a high cost of living area but it often does not compensate for the additional costs. When my dad was in you were guaranteed free medical, the exchanges and commissaries were a great benefit, and there were other benefits that have now disappeared or been decreased. Even the vaunted retired pay will go away in 2018. The current op tempo has increased because it has become so difficult to recruit folks and the also because of the ever decreasing end strength. Folks are being forced to do more with less and our Congress seems to view the military as a social engineering lab. They make sure we are provided with what we don't need or want and fail to provide us with what we do need or want. This is not to say that civilians don't work hard, but they can control how hard they work Service members don't have that option. In civilian life you sign up for a job. If it gets difficult or is not what you want, you find another job. That as you recall was not an option in the military.
You mention diversity specialists. That sort of task was usually a collateral duty, something you did when you weren't doing your regular job or standing the additional watches when you were finished with your 12 hour day. Though these positions are of dubious value service members have to do them because they are mandated. I have worked in the Navy and in the civilian sector and the civilian sector on the whole is much easier.

Sgt Gus Laskaris - There is an underlying problem with part of the argument. When some of the kids go in they do not think about what they want to do when they separate. As you imply they don't go in thinking of it as a career but as either an adventure or doing their duty or just more breathing time before they have to go to work. The education they receive does not prepare them for getting a job. They do not know what is available so when they go into the service they go into ratings or MOSs that don't have transferable skills on the civilian side. Further when separation comes they are not familiar with negotiation techniques and as you also alluded to from RP, they do not recognize what skills or attributes they bring to the marketplace. As a result many take a first job that does not fully recognize their potential. The nice thing about the civilian sector is that you have the option to change that through a variety of options (e.g. training, moving, pushing the envelope where you are etc.) I made that mistake and took the first offer when I got out. Found out I was making substantially less than my contemporaries, but that was my mistake for not preparing well enough before I got out. It took me a while to get to where I should have been. I would look for jobs where I met 75% of the qualifications the other 25% was career growth and eventually when I retired I was making six figures. In the service that is not always the case. You don't have the option of saying that gee I want to become x instead of y. It is based upon the needs of the service. Yes there are cushy jobs in the service. In the Navy I always thought it was the supply types and I am sure you saw your share in the Marines.
Regarding the danger etc as you implied many serve essentially in a peacetime environment but the Navy and others have their opportunity for excitement even then. Aside from the SEALs and the special boat folks and your corpsmen there are those such as even the aviators who as part of their readiness have to practice carrier operations and submariners who do interesting things without trying to go bump in the night and a wealth of others who are at risk just maintaining their quals. And of course you do this deployed and in port and starboard cycles. Yes civilian life can be difficult but you have more control and often as I have said before if you are doing the same work in the same environment as your service counterparts (i.e. apples to apples) you will find your pay and benefit package is much better. Not always but on the whole or more would join. What bothers me overall is that we are downsizing, and as you alluded to with your diversity specialist we are becoming a social sciences playground while the world is going to hell in a hand basket. From the Navy perspective we have to be ready for conventional combat as well as littoral,asymmetric combat and have to have a force and capabilities mix for that. We are all getting things we don't need and not getting what we need which to me is a greater issue. Whether they have it easier or not than their civilian counterparts the risks are increasing but our preparedness is going south, but not to worry we will have plenty trans gender heads and a multi cultural force ready to fight but not win because that would be unfair. Sorry I wandered off topic there.

Sgt Gus Laskaris - I think finally we are in violent agreement. I feel for the guys separating because it is a big world and so many are not ready for it. It took me about five years to get up to where I was supposed to be because I didn't negotiate my salary right. Now I'm an old fart I try to help out the kids if I can giving them tips and such. This has been an interesting discussion. One of the things I like the most about this site is that you can have a discussion without the damn name calling and other crap you see on Facebook and some of the other sites. That coupled with the fact that the folks here know what they are talking about makes it refreshing.
Ken

American Dream is not a house that you have to pay taxes even if it is "paid off". Some smart guy said and I quote: first ten years work hard for others with little pay and learn important skills, next ten years for yourself, the last ten years be so successful and earned the right to let others to work for you to learn their skills with little pay.

Sgt Gus Laskaris - I look through LinkedIn often and yes, most of the people I served with have jobs that don't compare to mine. But as I remember, they made no effort to learn new things. They were complacent in just getting their duties done and going home. I remember going in at 2am multiple days in a row because I had a project I needed to do and I needed to be away from the constant interruption of "My printer doesn't work or other normal helpdesk things." You get what you put in. The people I see who focused on getting rank and not getting knowledge are the ones who typically take crap jobs when they get out.

Sgt Gus Laskaris - Pretty cynical and broad brushing for a group of people who put it on the line and received broken bodies, broken minds who insist if the govt broke it they bought it. Sure, there will be people gaming the system there always are. When at Walter Reed, remember seeing all the broken bodies besides my own-seen a lot of rivers cried by family members, soldiers, and marines.

SGT Leif Lynch - No doubt sometimes-yes. Depends on your MOS and the types of units you were in as well and the times you were serving in. Was in a Stryker Brigade in a CAV squadron (combat unit) going through transformation(second one) and saw many trying to educate themselves whether through civilian or military education systems. For many of us the job was never done and the day never ended in any fashion(was a supply sgt who cared about commander, unit, and mission-one of only who was single living in barracks).

Dude, living in the barracks sucks. Can't have chicks over, room inspections, galley food was mostly horrible.

Why does everyone say the Commissary is a huge benefit? Everywhere I have been the surcharge at the commissary was higher than the state sales tax. When I was stationed in Washington D.C the budget was tight and we did a line by line comparison of our grocery list at 4 places to find the cheapest place to grocery shop. The commissary was the most expensive on 95% of the items.

The compensation package is arguably one of the most robust oUT there for entry level jobs. For example, 30 days of annual vacation is a benefit that typically takes 15 years of work service to obtain in the private sector, or even other federal employment. It's a tradeoff. For those willing to participate, it produces (generally speaking) higher fiscal returns and benefits than almost all private sector and most other public sector jobs.

I'm with SFC Kennedy. My wife shops at Wal-Mart, Sam's Club and the Commissary and it's rare that the Commissary can beat the other two on 95% of the items we purchase. Case lot sales and the occasional specials on meat are about the only time we purchase at the commissary. And the "non-tax, tax" surcharge, as my wife has come to call it, is usually much higher than the local sales tax and it's placed on food whereas sales tax isn't!

I always saw it more as "maintenance."