Posted on Nov 8, 2014
Is standing for equality consistent with opposing open immigration?
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In 1776, in a fraction of one sentence written into the Declaration of Independence was stated the real American Revolution, the new idea, and it was this: “that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.” That was it. This is the essence of Americanism. This is the rock upon which the whole “American miracle” was founded.
If this is what our country was founded on...so why are we resisting immigration and amnesty? These are people that want a better life...and come to America to get it. Have we forgot what it means to be an American...or has Americanism taken a new meaning: excluding anyone that is not American? What about, "give us your hungry, give us your poor"? We were all immigrants (except Natives) and our Southern border Mexicans are more native than we will ever be. (We, as in Caucasians) This topic will probably strike a nerve for many folks...but it is up for discussion, and I'm curious to see how you all feel about immigration, and amnesty?
If this is what our country was founded on...so why are we resisting immigration and amnesty? These are people that want a better life...and come to America to get it. Have we forgot what it means to be an American...or has Americanism taken a new meaning: excluding anyone that is not American? What about, "give us your hungry, give us your poor"? We were all immigrants (except Natives) and our Southern border Mexicans are more native than we will ever be. (We, as in Caucasians) This topic will probably strike a nerve for many folks...but it is up for discussion, and I'm curious to see how you all feel about immigration, and amnesty?
Posted in these groups: 
Immigration
Immigration
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 23
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I don't think the general public is 'resisting immigration', I do 'resist' amnesty. My family immigrated from Ireland, so obviously, I am very pro-immigration. What I am not though, is allowing people to get a 'free pass'. There is a system in place, if you don't like that system, change it. Don't skirt around it by allowing people that break our laws to bypass that system that is in place. I think that the conversation that isn't being talked about is the economic ramifications of turning over 11 million illegal aliens into citizens at one time. From the increased funding issues of welfare, to the many business who (illegally) employ illegal aliens would now have to pay them minimum wage. Maybe we should start by prosecuting those employers who hire the illegal aliens. I think that this issue of immediate amnesty to all would create a huge economic burden, which is why there is a system in place to control this issue. Sure, I think that system could be run better, but amnesty is not the way to 'fix it'.
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SSgt (Join to see)
CW2 Joseph Evans You can get help on Craigslist and there are veterans who are willing to help. One of the biggest hurdles is some kind of income but I have found in certain circumstances you can do work for rent. All sorts of options is one is creative enough.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
SSgt (Join to see), I'm not sure how much you've been following my posts, but I am starting a nonprofit for homeless and disadvantaged vets that puts them in a "tiny home" for a year at a location with physical therapy, counseling, a cafeteria, internet access for online classes, and transportation to and from work with community partners helping with part time work and a few onsite options to help maintain the facilities for pay/participation... A year with the program, you leave with a "tiny home" that you can park in an RV park or in your brothers back yard... Get the VA, Education programs, and grants to cover the bulk of the bills.
Take all the guess work and risk out of it.
Take all the guess work and risk out of it.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Very good idea. I really it and the small home is a start to meaning in their lives. I would also love to see people helped with legal matters. There is a huge need for intervention so we can materially shift away from rhetoric and you said, "paper shuffling".
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LTC Paul Labrador
I completely agree. Our immigration system is broken and has been needing revamp in quite some time.....BUT, it is the current legal process and needs to be followed. Rewarding bad behavior only encourages it.
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Absolutely, SSG(P) (Join to see). My grandfather and grandmother came here from Poland, but they did not sneak over the border illegally. They entered the country legally and went through the process of gaining citizenship. That's the difference, and it's a big one, in my opinion.
I interpret amnesty to mean this: You entered our country illegally and broke the law. You've continued to break the law for as long as you've been here. Now we're going to give you amnesty and forgive all those illegal acts. You can remain here and be a U.S. citizen. I know it's not that cut and dried or that simple, but do you see the message that amnesty sends?
I interpret amnesty to mean this: You entered our country illegally and broke the law. You've continued to break the law for as long as you've been here. Now we're going to give you amnesty and forgive all those illegal acts. You can remain here and be a U.S. citizen. I know it's not that cut and dried or that simple, but do you see the message that amnesty sends?
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CW5 (Join to see)
It might have been easier when our grandparents came over. My grandparents came here around 1910. I think the point is that they did what was required by law to enter the USA legally. It may be more expensive or more difficult nowadays. I'm not sure. I'll bet that riding a ship from Europe to the U.S. in 1910 or 1920 was no picnic.
I do believe we should document every single one. I think that's the goal anyhow. And the ones who entered illegally should be sent back. That sounds harsh to some, but allowing millions of "undocumented" visitors to remain here and become citizens because they "made it" to the U.S. sounds wrong to me.
I do believe we should document every single one. I think that's the goal anyhow. And the ones who entered illegally should be sent back. That sounds harsh to some, but allowing millions of "undocumented" visitors to remain here and become citizens because they "made it" to the U.S. sounds wrong to me.
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SPC(P) Jay Heenan
Coming from an individual that has to deal with the chaos that ensues...God Bless you brother for what you do MSG Kent Holmes ! Stay safe
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SSgt (Join to see)
CW5 (Join to see) I completely agree. It sends a message that the law doesn't matter, and those that broke the law are free to drain EVEN MORE from us. Its like giving a leech a high five after letting it suck your blood for years... I understand people want better lives, but its at the expense of our citizens who were born free.
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Your "American Miracle" is something that the United States has been trying to achieve since it's founding. Unfortunately xenophobia is part of our genetic heritage. It takes a strength of will and conviction to look at someone who does not resemble the person on the magazine or in the mirror and accept them without reservation.
Do we really need lizard men and little green men from mars for us to accept the totality of the human race in all its diversity, as our brothers and sisters?
I see the resistance to the global community as pockets of people begin to feel a sense of disenfranchisement. Even as we open up communications that allow us to talk to people on the other side of the world with only milliseconds in delay, we pull into our shells seeking isolation.
It's even harder, when as a nation, we see our brothers and sisters struggling to find work, seeking charity to support their families, while we share our wealth with the world lifting communities in Africa, Central and South America, and Asia out of a poverty much deeper than our own.
I do believe that the greatest failing as a nation right now is our lack of character. When did we lose our grace and compassion to let greed rule the day to the exclusion of justice?
Do we really need lizard men and little green men from mars for us to accept the totality of the human race in all its diversity, as our brothers and sisters?
I see the resistance to the global community as pockets of people begin to feel a sense of disenfranchisement. Even as we open up communications that allow us to talk to people on the other side of the world with only milliseconds in delay, we pull into our shells seeking isolation.
It's even harder, when as a nation, we see our brothers and sisters struggling to find work, seeking charity to support their families, while we share our wealth with the world lifting communities in Africa, Central and South America, and Asia out of a poverty much deeper than our own.
I do believe that the greatest failing as a nation right now is our lack of character. When did we lose our grace and compassion to let greed rule the day to the exclusion of justice?
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SPC(P) Jay Heenan
I do hear what you are saying CW2 Joseph Evans. I don't think we are talking about us losing our 'grace and compassion'. We still allow political refugees. Maybe some people are against immigration as a whole, but I think people are against people entering the country illegally. The only issue I have with your comment would be why are people considered to be a 'xenophobe' if they are against people breaking our laws?
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CW2 Joseph Evans
The problem isn't the 1%. We see it in our neighborhoods. The fences we build against the person next door. The panhandler on the street. The kid standing at the bus stop with in a threadbare coat that's a hand me down from his sister.
We watch FOX, CNN, MSNBC... when if we opened our eyes we would see the people in need in our own communities.
When you can, buy from ethical companies, when you can't, consider doing without. Help and volunteer at home communities. As Soldiers, do something other than church and the bars and the strip clubs. Be like SGM (Join to see) and time with Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts, or Girl Scouts. Habitat for humanity, soup kitchens, even Sunday lunches at church so you can meet new friends, even those who weren't able to contribute to the potluck that day...
So much we can do with catering to the elusive global conspiracy... just be there for our neighbors until that good will spills over to the rest of the world.
We watch FOX, CNN, MSNBC... when if we opened our eyes we would see the people in need in our own communities.
When you can, buy from ethical companies, when you can't, consider doing without. Help and volunteer at home communities. As Soldiers, do something other than church and the bars and the strip clubs. Be like SGM (Join to see) and time with Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts, or Girl Scouts. Habitat for humanity, soup kitchens, even Sunday lunches at church so you can meet new friends, even those who weren't able to contribute to the potluck that day...
So much we can do with catering to the elusive global conspiracy... just be there for our neighbors until that good will spills over to the rest of the world.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
SPC(P) Jay Heenan,
The spirit of American egalitarianism never would have created a barrier to becoming an American citizen. The thought that we would create a country that refused to admit people who sought a better life, would have been alien to the concept of our founding fathers. True, I don't think our founding fathers (most of whom were slave owners) were prepared for a globalized America, but they were prepared to accept all comers.
The fact that the barriers are in place is a sign of our xenophobia. If someone breaks our laws... our real laws... the ones about killing, and rape and theft and other forms of victimization, they should be dealt with by our laws on our soil. But I don't feel that a law creating a barrier to being an American is based in American principles.
The spirit of American egalitarianism never would have created a barrier to becoming an American citizen. The thought that we would create a country that refused to admit people who sought a better life, would have been alien to the concept of our founding fathers. True, I don't think our founding fathers (most of whom were slave owners) were prepared for a globalized America, but they were prepared to accept all comers.
The fact that the barriers are in place is a sign of our xenophobia. If someone breaks our laws... our real laws... the ones about killing, and rape and theft and other forms of victimization, they should be dealt with by our laws on our soil. But I don't feel that a law creating a barrier to being an American is based in American principles.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Well said Chief....now a I have 8 hours of advanced leadership....stand by for more thought provoking discussions.
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Good question SSG(P) (Join to see). IMHO equality for all, is implied, to apply to people in this country legally. 1776 was a different time and I'm sure our Founding Fathers weren't considering INS as a federal department at that time as there was no definition of a US citizen or visitor visa's etc.
Once the definition of legal immigration was defined, those deciding to enter the country illegally knew exactly what they were doing. To simply give amnesty to these folks for breaking the law - can't say I'm a fan. The financial burden alone on welfare, the fact that many send money offshore to families back home - we can't handle what we have now. If you want equality for all then send all the illegals home and let them apply legally to come here. The loopholes also have to go like illegal immigrants giving birth on US soil makes the children US citizens.
How many other countries have these type of immigration problems? Many won't even grant citizenship to foreigners.
Once the definition of legal immigration was defined, those deciding to enter the country illegally knew exactly what they were doing. To simply give amnesty to these folks for breaking the law - can't say I'm a fan. The financial burden alone on welfare, the fact that many send money offshore to families back home - we can't handle what we have now. If you want equality for all then send all the illegals home and let them apply legally to come here. The loopholes also have to go like illegal immigrants giving birth on US soil makes the children US citizens.
How many other countries have these type of immigration problems? Many won't even grant citizenship to foreigners.
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I am one that is not for amnesty. Yes may illegal immigrants want a better life. But it should be achieved by legal channels. Ask yourself why legal immigrants chose not to be naturalized. So why wave the magical wand for amnesty. Also over half of the illegals are here on expired visas so the southern border is not the only problem.
In 2011, about two-thirds of the more than 5 million legal Mexican immigrants eligible for citizenship had not yet naturalized, according to a new study by the Pew Hispanic Center.
http://www.governing.com/blogs/view/gov-all-immigrants-try-to-become-citizens-not-exactly.html
In 2011, about two-thirds of the more than 5 million legal Mexican immigrants eligible for citizenship had not yet naturalized, according to a new study by the Pew Hispanic Center.
http://www.governing.com/blogs/view/gov-all-immigrants-try-to-become-citizens-not-exactly.html
Pew Study: Not All Immigrants Want Citizenship
A new study examines why some eligible immigrants choose not to seek naturalization. For some, it's because they don't want to be U.S. citizens.
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We are not resisting immigration, we are just demanding that those wishing to immigrate follow the laws? In 1776, immigration was limited by the Atlantic Ocean and the Crown. We have never allowed uncontroled access to our Nation, nor should we. Yes, come to the United States BUT know that you must follow our laws...and this starts by how you enter our Nation.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
I'm in total agreement, however, we have millions of undocumented and it would be a tremendous drain our resources to find them, document them, jail them, feed them and then deport them only to have them come back the same way they got here. For all intensive purposes, they consider this place home. Moving forward we need to secure the border...but they can't and won't catch them all. What is your suggestion for the illegals we can't find and therefore can't deport, ignore them? As I see it, he feels like his hand is being forced..
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MSG Brad Sand
SSG(P) (Join to see)
In reality we do not need to find them, we go after the employers and enforce the law and one of two things will happen they will return to their homelands or they will take the proper steps to enter legally.
So, we should not enforce the law because too many people are breaking it? Too many people drive over the legal speed, so instead of ticketing someone, we should no longer enforce the speed limit? There is too many shootings in Chicago, so we should stop arresting murders? We have to feed all so people who have broken the law? I guess we feed them because it would be cruel to let them starve but that is not the issue.
There are those who will break the law, regardless of the law. We enforce the law for the good of our society.
In reality we do not need to find them, we go after the employers and enforce the law and one of two things will happen they will return to their homelands or they will take the proper steps to enter legally.
So, we should not enforce the law because too many people are breaking it? Too many people drive over the legal speed, so instead of ticketing someone, we should no longer enforce the speed limit? There is too many shootings in Chicago, so we should stop arresting murders? We have to feed all so people who have broken the law? I guess we feed them because it would be cruel to let them starve but that is not the issue.
There are those who will break the law, regardless of the law. We enforce the law for the good of our society.
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First off, this is a loaded comment to even address, SSGT LoGiudice, but I'm going to give it a shot here.
Nearly all of us in this country, come from Immigrants, so I wouldn't say we are anti-immigrant in the least. What we are, is "ANTI-ILLEGAL" immigrant.
I am Cherokee/Norweigan/Scots/French/Irish/Spanish/Black/Dutch/Welsh/English/Shawnee-American. I am a Heinz-57 mix, just like the rest of America, and I'm proud of each and every one of those amazing people who crossed oceans to attempt a better life for their children. Mission accomplished, and thank you to every one of those brave souls.
That said, I am also a Texan, born and raised. I probably see and hear things a lot different than they do in DC. I see the 'children' that have crossed the border... most are over the age of 15, with gang tattos, and they casually speak about what guns they prefer, how many they have robbed, injured and shot during their time with the gangs, and yes, most did not come here willingly, they were SENT here by their gangs or cartels to open up things on this end for those gangs and cartels. Mind you... those are the ones you don't hear about... unless you know a border agent or two.
I am all for immigration. I am against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. How can we expect people to enter this country and follow our laws, when by their first act, they are breaking those laws?
The statistics are, that each and every day, 25 Americans are killed by illegal immigrants. TWENTY FIVE! Murder, robbery, drunken driving, you name it, they do it, we arrest them, and send them back, and they come right back like an evil YoYo, that our legal system is not allowed to handle in the way they need to. Its an insane game of "Catch and Release" that is being played all along the Texas border. Google the facts, SSGT. Find out how many officers of the law die at the hands of illegals. Find out how many are fourth and fifth time offenders that have been deported many times, yet they just keep coming back, because we have no secure border.
These views, do not make me a racist, because what is coming over the border these days, is not all South American. Its Chinese, Eastern European, Middle Eastern, and all points in between. Check those facts out, sir, and find out how many Korans and prayer rugs have been found along the Texas border, and then tell me again how wanting a secure border, and a stop to the ILLEGAL crossing of same, could possibly make me look as if I am against Equality or be viewed as a racist, when I'm related in some way to every one on the globe?
No, SSGT LoGiudice, I am not against immigration. I am against every bad person in the world being able to walk thru our border, and being ignored while doing it. There is only one way to go forward with Immigration, and that is to close the border FIRST... then we can talk.
Nearly all of us in this country, come from Immigrants, so I wouldn't say we are anti-immigrant in the least. What we are, is "ANTI-ILLEGAL" immigrant.
I am Cherokee/Norweigan/Scots/French/Irish/Spanish/Black/Dutch/Welsh/English/Shawnee-American. I am a Heinz-57 mix, just like the rest of America, and I'm proud of each and every one of those amazing people who crossed oceans to attempt a better life for their children. Mission accomplished, and thank you to every one of those brave souls.
That said, I am also a Texan, born and raised. I probably see and hear things a lot different than they do in DC. I see the 'children' that have crossed the border... most are over the age of 15, with gang tattos, and they casually speak about what guns they prefer, how many they have robbed, injured and shot during their time with the gangs, and yes, most did not come here willingly, they were SENT here by their gangs or cartels to open up things on this end for those gangs and cartels. Mind you... those are the ones you don't hear about... unless you know a border agent or two.
I am all for immigration. I am against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. How can we expect people to enter this country and follow our laws, when by their first act, they are breaking those laws?
The statistics are, that each and every day, 25 Americans are killed by illegal immigrants. TWENTY FIVE! Murder, robbery, drunken driving, you name it, they do it, we arrest them, and send them back, and they come right back like an evil YoYo, that our legal system is not allowed to handle in the way they need to. Its an insane game of "Catch and Release" that is being played all along the Texas border. Google the facts, SSGT. Find out how many officers of the law die at the hands of illegals. Find out how many are fourth and fifth time offenders that have been deported many times, yet they just keep coming back, because we have no secure border.
These views, do not make me a racist, because what is coming over the border these days, is not all South American. Its Chinese, Eastern European, Middle Eastern, and all points in between. Check those facts out, sir, and find out how many Korans and prayer rugs have been found along the Texas border, and then tell me again how wanting a secure border, and a stop to the ILLEGAL crossing of same, could possibly make me look as if I am against Equality or be viewed as a racist, when I'm related in some way to every one on the globe?
No, SSGT LoGiudice, I am not against immigration. I am against every bad person in the world being able to walk thru our border, and being ignored while doing it. There is only one way to go forward with Immigration, and that is to close the border FIRST... then we can talk.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
This is not an argument about keeping our border open or closing it...I prefer it closed. This is about the several million illegals that are here. What do we do? We can financially track them down and document them, and than deport them, that is illogical and inconceivable at this point. We need to come up with a viable option, the current stance of our POTUS is to allow a limited amnesty, of illegals that are for 5 or more years and have no criminal record, can provide a work history can register and avoid deportation for at least 3 years, this is what I got out of it . The illegals that are criminals get no amnesty, no reprieve, and should be tracked down, documented and either jailed or deported. The current obstacle between the US and MX isn't working, so how many times should we deport before we jail them? Do we have the resources to jail them? No, so that option is not an option at all, so we continue to deport and when they come back and get caught, we deport again. It is a broken system, and the current law needs to be amended so the influx of illegals does not exhaust our coffers. I was looking for solutions not arguments, I do not want illegals jihadists, illegal criminals, or cartel entering our country, but I am open to illegals that seek asylum, want a better life, and are willing to take jobs that you and I wouldn't even consider...my .02
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I we allow open immigration, and mass amnesty, how is that equal treatment to the people who played by the rules and followed the legal path to immigration?
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
I'm not saying a blanket amnesty, but consider only cases that have been proven to be worthy. No criminal history, extended work history, children born here, especially if they have been born here. We'd be crazy to deport those that have lived here for some 20 years and have made a life here. It isn't going to happen anyways even if I wanted it to...so let's get past that issue
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SSgt (Join to see)
Then why not force them into some kind of citizenship program instead of just saying "oh, here, be a citizen." Unless you can prove they've been paying taxes and all that, then your giving them government benefits and opening the flood gates. If you let one in, then all the rest cry foul. Its a very, very difficult topic.
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My parents are immigrants from England, truly an anomaly. I wanted to join the Royal Marines, but to do so I would lose my American nationality, yet we accept non-Americans without question, a bit of a dichotomy
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Sgt Nick Marshall
Didn't really wallow, had opportunities to train with them in Norway, very professional.
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Great perspective! One I had admittedly not considered. To me it has always been about "the law. " my grandparents immigrated here from Italy following legal means. It is hypocritical of me to advocate closing the door completely. Clearly we need to fix the problem. I'm personally just not comfortable with how solutions are being put into place.
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