Posted on Jul 14, 2019
Is the 1st Marine Division Patch an authorized Army combat patch?
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Marines do not wear combat patches on any of our uniforms, but we do have patches that represent our Divisions. I recently encountered a US Army soldier who is a former Marine and he had a 1st Marine Division patch on his right shoulder. Has the Army authorized this patch to be worn as a combat patch for soldiers who served in combat when they were in the Marine Corps?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 12
1SG (Join to see)
WO1 (Join to see) are you aware of any units that received written permission under 19-17 a. (d) (3)?
[Unless otherwise approved by this regulation, Soldiers attached or under operational control (OPCON) to other
services are not authorized to wear their patches as their SSI–FWTS without written approval from DCS, G–1 or a desig-
nated representative.]
That doesn't mean other periods haven't been authorized by the DCS G1, after 2017. Authorizations between the 2014 version and the 2017 version should have been reflected in the 2017 version, as part of the change.
My company was assigned to 1 MARDIV during the authorized period. The 1MARDIV SGM asked me if my Soldiers would be able to wear the patch. I explained why we couldn't, and provided him the wording from the then current AR 670-1, and a draft proposed change, at hos request. He was adamant that he wanted to limit the time period to the period reflected in both changes. It wasn't the Army that wanted Soldiers to wear it, it began with him.
Now, the USMC may have changed their mind about limiting its wear, and the DCS, G1 may or may not seek input from the USMC before authorizing an Army unit to wear their 1MARDIV patch, but all of that is beyond the scope of my knowledge. I'm only aware of how it began.
To correct my response to the original question posed: Unless the Soldier was present during the period authorized by AR 670-1, or has written documentation from the DCS, G1 authorizing its wear, the wearing of the 1MARDIV patch as FWT SSI isn't authorized.
I'll add that if the Soldier was wearing it because he deployed with 1MARDIV as a Marine, it definitely isn't authorized.
[Unless otherwise approved by this regulation, Soldiers attached or under operational control (OPCON) to other
services are not authorized to wear their patches as their SSI–FWTS without written approval from DCS, G–1 or a desig-
nated representative.]
That doesn't mean other periods haven't been authorized by the DCS G1, after 2017. Authorizations between the 2014 version and the 2017 version should have been reflected in the 2017 version, as part of the change.
My company was assigned to 1 MARDIV during the authorized period. The 1MARDIV SGM asked me if my Soldiers would be able to wear the patch. I explained why we couldn't, and provided him the wording from the then current AR 670-1, and a draft proposed change, at hos request. He was adamant that he wanted to limit the time period to the period reflected in both changes. It wasn't the Army that wanted Soldiers to wear it, it began with him.
Now, the USMC may have changed their mind about limiting its wear, and the DCS, G1 may or may not seek input from the USMC before authorizing an Army unit to wear their 1MARDIV patch, but all of that is beyond the scope of my knowledge. I'm only aware of how it began.
To correct my response to the original question posed: Unless the Soldier was present during the period authorized by AR 670-1, or has written documentation from the DCS, G1 authorizing its wear, the wearing of the 1MARDIV patch as FWT SSI isn't authorized.
I'll add that if the Soldier was wearing it because he deployed with 1MARDIV as a Marine, it definitely isn't authorized.
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1SG Dennis Hicks
Sort of like that nasty rumor about wearing a CIB if you were a MARINE and awarded a CAR. The whole Combat Patch/FWTS-SSI has been clarified since 2008 because of the patch hunters. Unless you were assigned during the authorized period you can NOT WEAR any MARINE patches and you also can not wear the patch if you were a MARINE now assigned to the Army.
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1SG Dennis Hicks
WO1 (Join to see) - Chief if you deploy as an ARMY COMPANY SIZE element you wear your SSI as your FWTS-SSI that was established many years ago.
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SPC Cody Webster
Howdy. I was 1 A.D in Ramadi 2006. I was on a C.O.L.T that had a Marine k9 team with us at all times. Afterwards I was sent to 1st infantry. I would often wear my 1st MEF patch. I even met General Peter Pace wearing it. He shook my hand and gave me his coin including SEAC William Gainey.
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We used to fight over if we could wear shooting badges, USMC, on an Army uniform for former Marines. It was yes in 1983-4 maybe 85. I do remember hearing that the Ranger unit that went to Parris Island for 2 weeks of shooting, and qualified on the KD range were allowed to wear the USMC Shooting Badges.
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IAW AR 670-1 21-17 b. (14),
Soldiers who served with the 1st Marine Division between 19 March 2003 and 21 April 2003 during combat operations in support of OIF are authorized to wear the 1st Marine Division SSI as their SSI–FWTS.
**Note this is a very limited 34-day period where it is authorized.
So, if he was in the Army during this period, deployed to CENTCOM area in support of OIF, and served with 1 MARDIV, it is authorized. If he doesn't meet this criteria, it isn't authorized.
Soldiers who served with the 1st Marine Division between 19 March 2003 and 21 April 2003 during combat operations in support of OIF are authorized to wear the 1st Marine Division SSI as their SSI–FWTS.
**Note this is a very limited 34-day period where it is authorized.
So, if he was in the Army during this period, deployed to CENTCOM area in support of OIF, and served with 1 MARDIV, it is authorized. If he doesn't meet this criteria, it isn't authorized.
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Capt Michael Wilford
Thank you, 1SG, for this very thorough and comprehensive response. I would say that, based on this, the soldier I encountered was not authorized to wear the 1st Marine Division patch as his combat patch.
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SGT (Join to see)
There is authorization, and then there is enforcement. I knew a former Marine infantryman who wore the 1st Marine Division combat patch on his BDUs and Class A’s. He was one of two Vietnam Veterans in my battalion who were still on active duty (this was the early 90’s). At that time, AR 670-1 only authorized WWII Marine Corps veterans to wear Marine Corps SSI-FWTS on an Army uniform. Everyone knew he was in Vietnam and no one ever corrected him, even during command inspections. It is up to the commander and senior NCO to enforce that rule in AR 670-1.
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SPC Cody Webster
Capt Michael Wilford I was on a C.O.L.T in Ramadi in 06. Had a Marine K9 team attached to us all the time. I met General Peter Pace in 2007 wearing the 1st MEF patch. He shook my hand and gave me his coin. Wore it until 2010 when I got out.
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Here's a good thread with info on this topic sir. Short regulatory answer is no. Not if you werent in the Army...doesn't quite make sense to me though.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/what-guidance-is-used-in-the-army-for-prior-service-marines-to-wear-the-1st-or-3rd-mardiv-patch
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/what-guidance-is-used-in-the-army-for-prior-service-marines-to-wear-the-1st-or-3rd-mardiv-patch
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Capt Michael Wilford
Thanks, Lt. The politics of patches, pins, badges, and other uniform items has and always will be bigger than written guidance and policy.
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Since prior service Marines are NOT allowed to wear their division patch as a "combat patch"....
(stupid question but I'll ask anyway)
....Does this apply to the Army service uniform as well when it comes to wearing a "combat badge?"
I'm only asking because I feel like I'm going to raise some red flags if I have 6 overseas stripes on my right sleeve and no combat badge.
(stupid question but I'll ask anyway)
....Does this apply to the Army service uniform as well when it comes to wearing a "combat badge?"
I'm only asking because I feel like I'm going to raise some red flags if I have 6 overseas stripes on my right sleeve and no combat badge.
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Also you’re a snitch. Stop snitching and stop sweating what other people are doing who are clearly your betters.
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Capt Michael Wilford
A snitch? Wow! Talk about being uninformed, disrespectful, and just plain stupid! You clearly forget that you are addressing a commissioned officer. That aside, your attention to detail is severely lacking. I did not say anything about this soldier that would reveal his name, rank, unit, duty station, or current billet. Since you are an all knowing LCpl, why don't you tell me about him? Please also tell me about the CAR I earned, the SSDR with Bronze Stars I earned, and the Campaign Medals with Bronze Stars I earned; as a LCpl, you are clearly my better. When I was a Lcpl, I was still a boot Marine with lots to learn, but I guess the Marine Corps has changed since then.
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LCpl Russell Wallace
Capt Michael Wilford apparently being an officer absolved you of any criticism. Also I don’t really care. The point I was making was that it shouldn’t matter if wearing the marine division patch is in regs or not.
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I get this all the time according to regulation if that person was a soldier attached to 1st MarDiv then yes. If that person was a Marine and not a soldier then it isn't authorized, I have gotten into it with a lot of my fellow marines that are also in the Army that wear there 2nd MarDiv patches. But truthfully no one really ever cares or says anything. Reason why I never care about wearing anything I don't even wear my DS badge unless I have to put my campaign hat on then it is a must.
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Capt Michael Wilford
I appreciate the response, but as a Marine, AR670-1 is as foreign to me as MCOs are to the Army. The general consensus I am getting is that a very special combat situation existed where this patch was authorized and the soldier I encountered more than likely did not meet the criteria.
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SFC Melvin Brandenburg
Capt Michael Wilford even in the army an order authorizing wear of the combat patch must be issued in order for the soldier to wear it.
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LCpl Russell Wallace
Capt Michael Wilford but mainly why would you bitch about a marine who deployed to combat in the marine corps wearing his division patch. Regulations be damned he has earned the right to wear that combat patch.
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