Posted on Jul 25, 2017
GySgt John O'Donnell
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I recently attended an Air Force Boot Camp Graduation and I saw an Air Force SSgt (E-5) and an Army SSgt (E-6) each wearing an Meritorious Service Medal (Both with less than 12 years service). Now I know there are some difference between branches of service, but this was very surprising considering in the Marine Corps there is a very high standard required to receive the award. Opinions please.
Posted in these groups: Us medals AwardsLeadership abstract 007 Leadership
Edited >1 y ago
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1stSgt Eugene Harless
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247
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I've long ago stopped wondering how or why certain branches or even units within the same branch determine awards. The Eagle, Globe and Anchor is the award Marines should cherish the most. Everything else is just gravy. It doesn't matter whats on your sleeve or chest, its whats in your heart.
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LCpl Aaron Freeman
LCpl Aaron Freeman
7 y
Ooh rah!
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LTC Operations Officer (Opso)
LTC (Join to see)
7 y
1stSgt Eugene Harless as expectation management for my Soldiers in Afghanistan I told them all I wanted was two awards. They asked which ones. I said the Afghanistan Campaign Medal and the NATO Article 5 Medal. They asked, "Don't we all get them?" I said yes, so I won't be disappointed.
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1LT William Clardy
1LT William Clardy
>1 y
I need to go fetch some mil-spec coffee, LTC (Join to see).
On my first read, I thought you said "NATO Article 15 Medal". Even worse, my first thought was wondering if I might have already qualified....
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Cpl James R. " Jim" Gossett Jr
Cpl James R. " Jim" Gossett Jr
>1 y
SEMPER FI...
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SGM Erik Marquez
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Edited 7 y ago
Gunny GySgt John O'Donnell "considering in the Marine Corps there is a very high standard required to receive the award"

I KNOW you know this, but as consideration for other readers...Lets keep in mind the "Marine Corps" does not recommend nor approve an MSM, individuals with personal beliefs standards and values do. And as such, yes, some Marines receive an MSM for service I would consider not worthy of the award..I also met some Marines that DID NOT receive the MSM and I felt they should have,,,, but alas, the individual commander a human with human thoughts, individual beliefs and standards felt otherwise.
I also agree awarding the MSM to a relatively young, and only moderately experienced NCO is likely inappropriate though I would have to review the background of that SM and the 638 before being willing to make that call.
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PFC Thomas Holman
PFC Thomas Holman
7 y
From a PFC, wow. Thank you.
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SGT Steven Mott
SGT Steven Mott
7 y
I think if the action calls for the award it doesn’t matter what rank you are. When I was in Iraq on second deployment, my LT who was our company commander at the time put himself in for a Bronze Star never left the fob. Me and my fellow soldiers who went on mission every night in Mosul Iraq and surrounding areas we received AAMs and some soldiers didn’t get award at all.The LT took what we did and got credit for it.I understand that he was the commander but I think that is poor leadership and not a good example for his soldiers to follow.
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Cpl James R. " Jim" Gossett Jr
Cpl James R. " Jim" Gossett Jr
>1 y
GySgt. John O'Donnell I totally agree with you...I to an Old Jarhead, have seen some get an AWARD they did not deserve. Some are handed out just because they Happened to be some place...
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Sgt Dale Briggs
Sgt Dale Briggs
>1 y
SGT Steven Mott - without a V most would just shrug their shoulders. You can’t bullshit your way to a V device, but the BS is for meritorious service not necessarily for valor. My son got an ARCOM when leaving Afghanistan as an E3. NCOs and Sr NCOs got BS. My son left the FOB a few times to fix weather equipment, he’s AF and was attached to the Army's 10th Mountain Aviation Brigade. It’s clear a lot of the salad is bullshit, you can get a BS for handing out chow in a superior fashion I suppose it your an E6.
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CSM Thomas McGarry
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As I'm sure you realize there are set criteria to be awarded the MSM and it did have to be approved by some Command 0-6 or above. Heck I know of Units that were deployed to Iraq and most Officers received a Bronze Star including those that spent most of their time in an AC TOC with very few if any enlisted being awarded this Medal! Guess it depend on the Command.
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Sgt Teddy Peters
Sgt Teddy Peters
8 y
I think it really comes down to promotion points. The Army has promotion points for medals and the Marines don't.
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Sgt Infantryman
Sgt (Join to see)
7 y
That’s why it’s the MSM now because BSM can no longer be given out to office jockeys
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SFC Familia Gonzalez
SFC Familia Gonzalez
7 y
You beat me to it CSM. Bronze Star! Unbelievable.
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MSG Loren Tomblin
MSG Loren Tomblin
>1 y
Back in the day (Viet Nam) I was a forward observer/interpreter. I left there with a Purple Heart and an ARCOM. Officers always got a BS for service in most cases.
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Is the awarding of the Meritorious Service Medal being watered down due to lack of standardization across the services?
SFC Mpd Ncoic
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Hello there!!! As a 42A, i have processed literally thousands of awards, both deployed and in garrison. What grinds my gears to no end is the fact that more times than not, a Sr. NCO or officer would recieve an MSM/BSM just because of their grade or position. On the other hand, you have these high speed Soldiers working their behinds off, but because of their RANK, they are usually awarded AAMs and ARCOMS, when they clearly deserved a much higher award. Case in point, during my 2nd deployment, there was actual guidance put out saying what each rank would recieve; this clearly was in direct contradiction to regulatory guidance. This irked me down to my soul....but did anyone in leadership positions advice otherwise......i'll just leave this right here.
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LTC Military Police
LTC (Join to see)
7 y
That sounds like a command problem. The Commander and the Command Sergeant Major need to be talking about this one.
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CPT (Other / Not listed)
CPT (Join to see)
5 y
SFC Mark Biggs - It almost sounds like your son's actions were not only BSM-V worthy, but potentially MOH, depending on how the award was written up and supported. It all depends on his chain of command and who within that chain of command decided what his actions were worth. Additionally, the evidence to support the award type is important. If the evidence wasn't produced, or submitted, that may have a result on the outcome. Unfortunately, award results depend heavily on the chain of command (BN level and above) support and guidance for various award types.
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CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
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CW4 Scott Hyde
CW4 Scott Hyde
>1 y
SFC Mark Biggs - ARCOM with a a V device? If so, that V Device carries a lot of weight. Was he put in for a higher award and downgraded?
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PO1 Cryptologic Technician Collection
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Edited >1 y ago
Did you ask them why they received their MSMs? What else was on their uniforms? In your picture, it looks like you have an MSM. What did you do to get your MSM?

Sure, it is possible that some higher-up gave it to them as a prize for serving on his or her staff, but why assume it was awarded to someone who didn't deserve it?

Here is the criteria for it: "On or after September 11, 2001, for outstanding non-combat meritorious achievement or service in a non-combat or combat area."

As you know, the fight has changed and people find themselves in situations that they otherwise normally wouldn't. It is entirely possible that these people performed their duties exceptionally and were awarded for it. My ribbon rack would be confusing to people because my highest award is an ARCOM I got as an E-4 while doing LLVI with 10th Mountain in Afghanistan during Operations Mountain Lion and Mountain Thrust in 2006. Did I join the Navy to ruck in the mountains of Southern Afghanistan with Army infantry? No. Did it happen? Yes.
In my career field (Cryptology) it was not uncommon to see sailors walking around with higher awards (and from different services) than you would normally see because of the opportunities that job provides. The same could apply to this situation.

On the flip-side, I have seen some people get rewards for ridiculous things as well.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2008-title32-vol3/xml/CFR-2008-title32-vol3-sec578-18.xml
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GySgt John O'Donnell
GySgt John O'Donnell
>1 y
First off "yes' I would be happy to have standardization for cross service awards (e.g. MSM, BS, LOM, SS, ect.) not universal standards for all awards. That said, each service still has there individuality in the awarding of Achievement, Commendation medals, and to your point Combat Action awards.
Regarding your point about Combat Action awards, they would still meet individual service standards. To this point a Marine would never have to give up his/her award, because a Marine in combat is a Marine in combat, we have never separated the MOSs in the Corps for combat action awards. So the Army and thank the Corps for the CAB.
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SFC (Other / Not listed)
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
GySgt John O'Donnell - I'd say the standards for valor awards are pretty well established and universal. However I do agree there are discrepancies in achievement awards because it is less a "service standard" and more of a "commander's discretion", at least for the lower tier awards up to and including the MSM.
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GySgt John O'Donnell
GySgt John O'Donnell
>1 y
You are 100% on point with Valor awards. The Bronze Star without V and the Meritorious Service Medal should meet the same "universal" standard as Valor awards because of the "cross-service" implications. That said, individual service can set whatever standard for there Achievement and Commendation Medals without cross service issues.
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SFC Rob Geer
SFC Rob Geer
7 y
SSgt Lonnie Montgomery Gunny... Ha, look Troop first off No there isn't any difference between an BS awarded to Airmen, Coast Guard, Army, Navy or Marines. You guy's think your fuckin special, Your not everyone had a purpose in the Military. You Marines purpose is just to catch bullets, I'm sorry to other Marines but this guy is so full of Shit his eyes have to be Brown. The original post is about lack of service the two Soldier's had wearing the MSM, that is all not the bullshit you spoke of Gunny. So how about let comments that are relative to the topic matter. Time of service has no factor in the award, action in service does.

Thanks... Your Boss
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SSgt Tim Fink
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If you know nothing about their service, other than their Time in Service, you are making assumptions. No medal should be based upon Time in Service. If that’s the case, it becomes a participation trophy.
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TSgt Tony Cooper
TSgt Tony Cooper
4 y
I was awarded my MSM with time I. Grade of 2 1/2 years.
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CPT Human Resources Officer
19
19
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As a personnel officer who see a myriad of MSMs, the standards have been "watered" down. For other branches, depending on the level you work for and your rank, an MSM may be warranted. For soldiers, I have seen some BS write ups or fluffed up citations to make it seem as though troops have walked on water when they really showed up for work and left on time. I agree that this award should be for those who go above and beyond, show marked zeal and intelligence. But it is true that the " everyone's a winner" mentality has ushered its way into the awards process. And it sucks to have to process that garbage.
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CPT Human Resources Officer
CPT (Join to see)
>1 y
And kudos for your OIC! Understand there is nothing in the regulation that regard rank in recommending awards. So long as the criteria is met and the character of service is in tact, there is no reason why an award shouldn't be approved. The issue is the approval authority gets to put their stank on an says who can and can't receive a specific award.
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CSM Thomas McGarry
CSM Thomas McGarry
>1 y
By the same token I've also seen and been in Commands where to say the least they were very stingy in giving out awards. Most of the time I feel it was based on those in the upper command ranks (Officers and yes NCOs) or the UAs being too lazy to write up and or process the award. Don't get me wrong I've also seen my share of BS awards also.
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CW4 Jim Webb
CW4 Jim Webb
>1 y
At the Brigade level, I saw one MSM recommendation come through for a "career specialist" as a retirement award. Somebody had done some amazing wordsmithing on the recommendation because it was approved.
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LTC Military Police
LTC (Join to see)
7 y
Some of the most eye-opening times of my life were spent in the 80s waiting in senior peoples’ offices.

I wished I could count the numbers of ARCOMs with V devices from Viet Nam that I saw on the “I love me” walls!
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TSgt Jamie Boylan
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17
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So what you are saying is that no matter what an E-5 or E-6 does, he or she could never earn that award? That is BS, if someone has earned a award, no matter what rank he or she is, then they should receive it. I will not say that the AF SSgt or Army SSG should not have received it, because I did not serve with them. I do believe to base what award someone gets purely on rank/TIS is complete BS.
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Maj Security Forces
Maj (Join to see)
>1 y
It was total BS when I was in to base it soley on rank and TIS.
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CW5 Ranger Dave
CW5 Ranger Dave
>1 y
Maj (Join to see) - Ditto for the Legion of Merit.
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TSgt Tony Cooper
TSgt Tony Cooper
4 y
I disagree. I received my MSM as a E-3 in 1979. I damn well earned it.
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PO1 Gerald Lis
9
9
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Well going IA to Afghanistan with a PRT. I saw the Army E-3 to E-5 getting the Army Commendation medals as an EOT (end of tour) awards, the E-6 and above were given Bronze Stars. Being an E-6 in the Navy I was giving the same Army commendation medal as were the Chiefs, Sr. Chiefs and Officers. They were going to give My Department Head, A Full Commander, the same but I do believe her's was changed to MSM. I know that in the Navy it was very RARE to see an E-6 and below with a Navy Commendation Medal. Crap it was hard enough to get a NAM. But that is why the Navy and Marine Corps Team leads the way. Hell even after 20 years of Honorable service at my retirement I only received a Navy Achievement Medal.
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SFC Bill Gillespie
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7
0
I recieved my first MSM after 3 yrs of being a Drill Sgt. During that time I was Drill Sgt. of the qtr.3 times,earned my EIB,and graduate some of the finest soldiers in the army between 78 and 81.
It doesn't matter if I think I deserved it or not,but an 05..06..and 08 did...
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