Posted on Sep 12, 2016
Is the old enlisted/officer paygrade system outdated, considering the more educated service members under an All Volunteer Force?
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I feel it the old Military Paygrade Enlisted Officer system is not optimal, to take advantage the new use of the 1975 induction of the AVF All Volunteer Force educated citizen/service member, when the DOD finally had QOL Quality Of Life as a budget item?
The old system seems to start from the world of kings and queens monarchy's etc where the plebeian are drafted, conscripted, and separated from various functional civilized intelligent things in various ways.
We still need a fighting force willing to stand strong. No one disagrees. Now we have over 90% high school graduates at a minimum enlisting as early as 18 in the AVF since 1975, who should be able to be honored for their intelligence, determination, willingness to be that force that defends. We are no longer drafted into the old world construct of military systems.
The old system seems to start from the world of kings and queens monarchy's etc where the plebeian are drafted, conscripted, and separated from various functional civilized intelligent things in various ways.
We still need a fighting force willing to stand strong. No one disagrees. Now we have over 90% high school graduates at a minimum enlisting as early as 18 in the AVF since 1975, who should be able to be honored for their intelligence, determination, willingness to be that force that defends. We are no longer drafted into the old world construct of military systems.
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Responses: 71
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Having spent 10+ years enlisted and 10+ years commissioned, I would say that the current system could use some tweaks, but it is not necessarily outdated to the point where it needs to be overhauled. Yes, the history of the enlisted and commissioned ranks is usually attributed to the hierarchy that arose from a force of conscripts serving lords, but the divide still serves a purpose today --albeit in a slightly different way. Most of the previous comments already capture my thoughts, but I will say that in the many times I have engaged in such conversations the topic of salary seems to rise to the top. For me, it was never about salary. I was actually much happier as an enlisted technician, but I found more satisfaction in knowing that sacrificing my happiness led to a larger sphere of influence and ability to make changes in the lives around me. Ultimately, the role of an officer is not to be a technician, mechanic, gunner, fireman, et cetera, but to influence, direct, and motivate the technicians, mechanics, gunners, firemen, et cetera in order to accomplish the mission. That definition comes straight out of the textbook, but having lived both sides I see how that simple definition makes sense and how it succinctly separates the enlisted and commissioned members. Yes, I did influence, direct, and motivate as an E-6, but not to the degree I did as an O-1 (O-1E). I did take advantage of an enlisted-to-commissioning program, so I will say that for those who think there should not be a difference those opportunities are out there. I will also say that being a prior-enlisted officer did confirm some of my suspicions that after commissioning I was competing against kids with degrees in underwater basketweaving or mommy-and-daddy-funded degrees in being rich and spoiled, but those kids quickly become adults thanks to the backbone of the military--the enlisted corps (the senior enlisted directly, the junior enlisted indirectly). If I could just change the pay system slightly on both sides, not just between enlisted and commissioned, but between technical and non-technical, I still would not change a thing. Serving in the military is about service to this nation, not picking the jobs that pay better. It is the difference in how we serve that differentiates officer and enlisted.
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After I retired in 1989 and ventured into civilian life, I learned that the youth of that day and many today believe they should start at the top in pay and status without having gained the knowledge, education and especially years of on the job practical experience. Pay or the amount thereof doesn't mean much when one is thousands of miles away from home fighting for their country. It was the least of my worries when I was in Vietnam and when I was deployed to numerous other overseas areas.
One of many subtle differences between the military and civilian work force is that some civilians play the game of "kiss the bosses rear" to get ahead instead of working to succeed at what they do. I started out as a Private in the Army and worked my way up to retire as a CW3. It was not easy. I had to start all over when I retired from the Army and at 39 years old it wasn't fun finding yourself at the bottom of the ladder again. However, I started over in a totally different career and atmosphere. Again, I educated myself, worked hard and demonstrated my abilities (instead of kissing rear ends) and retired again as an Executive (Department Director). It is important to add that I surrounded myself with positive people who shared the same goals and successful attitude as I.
In both military and civilian life it takes dedication, discipline, determination and the willingness to sacrifice many things to reach the highest level of one's profession and earn the pay. However, one must be ready and willing to accept all the responsibilities and liabilities that comes with the position attained.
One of many subtle differences between the military and civilian work force is that some civilians play the game of "kiss the bosses rear" to get ahead instead of working to succeed at what they do. I started out as a Private in the Army and worked my way up to retire as a CW3. It was not easy. I had to start all over when I retired from the Army and at 39 years old it wasn't fun finding yourself at the bottom of the ladder again. However, I started over in a totally different career and atmosphere. Again, I educated myself, worked hard and demonstrated my abilities (instead of kissing rear ends) and retired again as an Executive (Department Director). It is important to add that I surrounded myself with positive people who shared the same goals and successful attitude as I.
In both military and civilian life it takes dedication, discipline, determination and the willingness to sacrifice many things to reach the highest level of one's profession and earn the pay. However, one must be ready and willing to accept all the responsibilities and liabilities that comes with the position attained.
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" We are no longer drafted into the old world construct of military systems." What the hell does that mean ? You choose to serve in the military for many reasons. How much money you make should not be one of them. Military compensation has changed greatly over the years and for the most part for the better. There are ways to compensate people who have education, training, etc. that the military needs.
BUT if you are serving because of the pay you are in the wrong place. Formal education is important. It is forced upon the officer corps...no promotion to 0-4 without a masters degree. I think we lose many good officers because of this artificial, bureaucratic requirement. NCOs feel this pressure too I think because of the linkage to promotion. What is missing here is that the emphasis should be on the ability to lead on the battlefield...to convince your folks to follow you into harm's way. A good rifleman does not need a PhD....he or she needs grit, determination and total commitment to their team. Schoolhouses do not teach this.
BUT if you are serving because of the pay you are in the wrong place. Formal education is important. It is forced upon the officer corps...no promotion to 0-4 without a masters degree. I think we lose many good officers because of this artificial, bureaucratic requirement. NCOs feel this pressure too I think because of the linkage to promotion. What is missing here is that the emphasis should be on the ability to lead on the battlefield...to convince your folks to follow you into harm's way. A good rifleman does not need a PhD....he or she needs grit, determination and total commitment to their team. Schoolhouses do not teach this.
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PO3 Aaron Hassay
Good question. The answer I do not exactly. I ask the question to see if anyone else might think the same thing. That is how action commitees start. But if we want the best fighting force the world ever has seen, we need to start advancing past the old system models used by kings and queens in drafting and conscription. The new system will be more similar to sports, where the positions are known, the talent naturally goes to the positions, and you do not need to treat the sports player as a low level plebeian. It will be more closely alligned to the civilian structure of EOP Equal Opportunity Programs to include Disability Finally in the Military EOP program. Did you know that military EOP programs unlike DOD Branch civilian employees EOP programs include disability. Basically the military does not want to let the service member really ever be treated as a human that gets sick or ill and needs attention medically due the crazy stress of some duty assignments. But that would not be unlike the current NFL concussion issue that was being hidden from the players, although known by the owners. HMM How interesting. It is worth some thought.
Basically if we are country and a citizenship we need to protect each other top to bottom. And I think the e1 to e9 things and o1 to o9 thing allows for less then human care at different times.
Basically if we are country and a citizenship we need to protect each other top to bottom. And I think the e1 to e9 things and o1 to o9 thing allows for less then human care at different times.
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SFC Josh Billingsley
Interesting thoughts. I think there are other more pressing items that need to be revamped in the system, but anything that can't stand up to critical review should be re-looked.
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MSG (Join to see)
PO3 Hassay, I think your analogy doesn't quite fit. If the Washington Redskins need an outstanding wide receiver, there are multiple places for them to recruit from.
However, where in the hell does the US Army find a competent Airborne Infantry Squad Leader (E-6). I'll tell you, they don't. they have to grow them. they have to recruit an aspiring apprentice. then they have to train them to a journeyman level with experiential learning, education and mentoring. Eventually, they move up to a master level.
Do you want everyone paid at a master level on day one? That is not sustainable. That is $15/ hour for flipping burgers model (apprentice level at best).
That is just the enlisted side.
How long does it take to grow an O-5? That person should be able to command a battalion. that command job has a completely different track with regard to training and education versus the SEA/ CSM.
Bottom line, I am confused as to what your actual question/ problem statement is other than you want more money...
if you want more money, seek more responsibility OR get out and move to the civilian marketplace.
However, where in the hell does the US Army find a competent Airborne Infantry Squad Leader (E-6). I'll tell you, they don't. they have to grow them. they have to recruit an aspiring apprentice. then they have to train them to a journeyman level with experiential learning, education and mentoring. Eventually, they move up to a master level.
Do you want everyone paid at a master level on day one? That is not sustainable. That is $15/ hour for flipping burgers model (apprentice level at best).
That is just the enlisted side.
How long does it take to grow an O-5? That person should be able to command a battalion. that command job has a completely different track with regard to training and education versus the SEA/ CSM.
Bottom line, I am confused as to what your actual question/ problem statement is other than you want more money...
if you want more money, seek more responsibility OR get out and move to the civilian marketplace.
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Granted the educational entrance level is higher today(over 20 yrs), but the folks graduating college want to jump right into big bucks.....not the military. The weaponry of the last 25 yrs DEMANDS higher education which is gained by AIT/OJT, and college on your time. Those coming in with degrees think they are being trained & lead by morons.........morons who will keep your ass alive until your ready to lead..........and then become a MORON like the rest of us. Do your 20 or so and be thankful of the BENEFITS at the END.
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If you feel you have more to offer the Navy, step up and drop a package. Talk to any of the Mustangs in your command, and they'll be happy to mentor you.
That being said, be prepared to see a different side of life. In the end, nobody cares how educated you are or where you got your degree. I've been mentored and trained by officers without degrees and chiefs with them. What matters is whether you stepped up for the job of an officer and the responsibility thereof. That's what we're getting paid for - perpetually having our necks on the block and accepting the responsibility for both the mission of the ship and the well-being of our Sailors.
If you think you're ready, STA-21 has an opportunity for you.
That being said, be prepared to see a different side of life. In the end, nobody cares how educated you are or where you got your degree. I've been mentored and trained by officers without degrees and chiefs with them. What matters is whether you stepped up for the job of an officer and the responsibility thereof. That's what we're getting paid for - perpetually having our necks on the block and accepting the responsibility for both the mission of the ship and the well-being of our Sailors.
If you think you're ready, STA-21 has an opportunity for you.
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We are paid based on the duties associated of the pay grade we hold. Some jobs have education or training requirements. The military is not required to pay more to a service member because they have more education.
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No, if someone has formal education they have the option to apply to be an officer or Warrant Officer.
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In a word: NO! If you have gathered the education and skills, apply for promotion. OCS, ROTC, Direct Commission, and Academy appointments are there for those who earn them. As far as the leadership chain, look at fire departments. They use a similar structure. Rank and pay are based on responsibility and position. Same in the civilian world with corporate officers and employees. You may have a high school drop out CEO who employees several PhDs.
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SGM (Join to see)
CPT Tom Monahan Didn't your last sentence disprove everything you'd said before that?
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CPT Tom Monahan
No, as the services have civilian leadership the only requirement to be CIC is 35 years old and a natural born American. No degree required.
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SGM (Join to see)
Then why couldn't a Corps Commanding General be a very smart person in the military arts who never finished college but was able to get a commission at a young age because the education rule was changed? Then this individual was promoted through the ranks because of her or his individual skills and talents and superb leadership all the way to this 3-star position. All because the rule about having a diploma was changed to having a certain level of skills and abilities, or a certain level of knowledge? Something a wider group of people might have, and not just those who were able to afford the costs or time to complete college before entering the military?
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CPT Tom Monahan
SGM (Join to see) - Good point. The highest you can go without a Bachelor Degree is CPT based on current rules. In a total warrior culture I could see the value of a Spartan type general. Our generals and senior officers are expected to serve as diplomats, peacemakers and, forgive me, policy wonks.
Bottomline, the separation in the ranks is position and responsibility based. All are not chiefs and most are crew. Same as with a fire department.
Bottomline, the separation in the ranks is position and responsibility based. All are not chiefs and most are crew. Same as with a fire department.
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If you want the pay of an officer be an officer. The difference in responsibility and stress from an O2 to an E4 is world's apart. Just because an E4 has a degree does not mean that they are being paid to utilize it. There are many programs to become a mustang and if people want to whine about how the ranking system is unfair instead of taking advantage of it then they clearly aren't ready to be an officer.
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