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I have been getting into this discussion with a few people lately and no one has been able to change my mind just yet. My position is that there is no unchanging and definite morality (e.g. a set of moral principles that, regardless of time, place, or culture remains unchanged and entirely understood). Rather, I believe that morality is changing and entirely depends on the time, place, culture, and utility. If it were beneficial to allow for murder and it allowed for the smoothest running society then we would have no problem with murder. For a real-world example, it was once perfectly acceptable to treat certain people as no more than equipment or animals to be used for physical labor; today, we understand that all human beings are valuable and should be treated as human beings. What do you believe? Is there an all-encompassing and permanent morality or is it dependent?
Values
Ethics
Religion
Morals
Posted >1 y ago
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SGT Joseph Gunderson I have pondered that question based on the very point you posted, Negros were property or chattel, once. In some states that law is still on the books. I cannot believe I am saying this but I have witnessed morality evolve or devolve with the culture of humanity. For me, personally, I believe and in my human capacity follow the Bible as my Soverign guide, as well as other religious, spiritual, moral, and secular instructions that guide towards the moral fiber I believe
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PO3 Phyllis Maynard
SGT Robert Johnson I have witnessed this fact also. I believe this is one of the reasons so many weird acts are committed in the name of God and country. For me, it seems that humans attempt to improve on the divine and that seems to yield pain and suffering, instead of peace, prosperity, and sane living.
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There is no expiration date on the Ten Commandments that God gave Moses. Every one of them is suitable for our time period as it was for the Israelites.
Moreover, the two great commandments that the Lord Jesus Christ added is very much relevant today:
1. To love the Lord thy God with all your heart, might, mind, and strength.
2. To love one another.
Moreover, the two great commandments that the Lord Jesus Christ added is very much relevant today:
1. To love the Lord thy God with all your heart, might, mind, and strength.
2. To love one another.
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SFC Greg Bruorton
Capt Gregory Prickett - I make reference to Exodus 20, 34, Deuteronomy 5 and Mosiah 13 in the Book of Mormon, which coincides. The 600+ laws you mention may well have been customs followed by the Israelites that had been fulfilled by Jesus Christ in the New Testament. As for the topic of slavery our Father in Heaven was and is against it, regardless that civilizations followed its practices.
I don't pretend to have all the answers; only those that have been given us in Scripture and through revelation by the prophets.
Furthermore, in my view, the freedom of religion does not come into conflict with the First Commandment because God's great purpose is for man's eternal life and progression through righteousness and agency--that agency that is precious to all.
I don't pretend to have all the answers; only those that have been given us in Scripture and through revelation by the prophets.
Furthermore, in my view, the freedom of religion does not come into conflict with the First Commandment because God's great purpose is for man's eternal life and progression through righteousness and agency--that agency that is precious to all.
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SFC Greg Bruorton
SGT Joseph Gunderson - No, Joseph, I do not argue, but it bears to reason that God wanted the best for Adam and his posterity as He now does for us. Much has been lost through the centuries, either willfully or with non-intent. Long before papyrus and parchment were invented, many of God's revelations were recorded on metallic plates--all of which cannot be located nor can they be expected to surface.
Disasters, floods, earthquakes, fire, and other natural events took part in destroying man's records of ancient days.
Disasters, floods, earthquakes, fire, and other natural events took part in destroying man's records of ancient days.
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SGT (Join to see)
Before this devolves into a holy war, a smattering of harsh truth...Lewis famously said it best at, “There are only nine meals between mankind and anarchy.”
Never doubt the power of the fear of starvation. Most preconceived definitions of morality will go out the window. (Especially for those accustomed to never missing a meal, let alone three days worth)
Never doubt the power of the fear of starvation. Most preconceived definitions of morality will go out the window. (Especially for those accustomed to never missing a meal, let alone three days worth)
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SFC Greg Bruorton
While I stand by my comments made, there is simply no reason for me to argue, debate, or even attempt to change the opinions of others on this thread. With that said, I bow out. But as God is my witness, I know the Book of Mormon to be true and only translated once since the discovery of the gold plates.
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That all depends on whether or not there is...or isn't a divine being responsible for our existence and judging the nature of any actual after-life. If one believes (as I'll admit I do) that there is...and He does...then "morality" is not subjective, but objective. On the other hand, if one is convinced there is no such being or any "after-life" to judge; then yes..."morality" is what suits the cause and effect of the moment.
The hard questions begin when one isn't quite certain which they believe.
The hard questions begin when one isn't quite certain which they believe.
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LCDR (Join to see)
I wouldn't say that. Rather, I'd state that an individual's sense of morality is defined by their belief in...or lack of belief in any theology.
Morality is not synonymous with behavior...but behavior is influenced by morality.
Therefore, if one's morality depends solely on the finite impacts of immediate, mortal cause and effect...it stands to reason it can adapt to changing circumstances. However, if their morality is based on unchanging concepts linked with eternal results...changes in circumstances are unlikely to influence their behavior.
Morality is not synonymous with behavior...but behavior is influenced by morality.
Therefore, if one's morality depends solely on the finite impacts of immediate, mortal cause and effect...it stands to reason it can adapt to changing circumstances. However, if their morality is based on unchanging concepts linked with eternal results...changes in circumstances are unlikely to influence their behavior.
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If morality changes, as you state, and there is no universal truth, then you (nor anyone else) has the right to say what anyone else is doing is wrong. I understand that what society accepts as "ok" changes but that doesn't make something ultimately right or wrong. Slavery was wrong despite what the slave owner's society accepted.
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SGT (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) - no, I understand you. You don’t seem to understand though...you think that homosexuality is wrong, and turn your nose up at it.
Other parts of the world, they die for it.
Same with any offense. If the punishments are outlandishly out of Synch, then maybe the moral basis isn’t so similar.
To analogize with an unrelated topic..(hypothetical to follow) .to disagree with immigration because you don’t think the country can handle an influx of new citizens economically, and infrastructure isn’t established to properly set up new residents for success, etc...that’s one thing.
To disagree with immigration because “f*ck immigrants”... that’s another thing.
Both agree in principle to the same thing. But The reasoning, or moral code, behind it, is not the same. So, if you want to lump yourself in the majority that thinks homosexuality is wrong, that’s cool. Also note that it is natural, observed, and present in most species.
I just hope you’re not the awful type that want to cut off someone’s arms for it.
Other parts of the world, they die for it.
Same with any offense. If the punishments are outlandishly out of Synch, then maybe the moral basis isn’t so similar.
To analogize with an unrelated topic..(hypothetical to follow) .to disagree with immigration because you don’t think the country can handle an influx of new citizens economically, and infrastructure isn’t established to properly set up new residents for success, etc...that’s one thing.
To disagree with immigration because “f*ck immigrants”... that’s another thing.
Both agree in principle to the same thing. But The reasoning, or moral code, behind it, is not the same. So, if you want to lump yourself in the majority that thinks homosexuality is wrong, that’s cool. Also note that it is natural, observed, and present in most species.
I just hope you’re not the awful type that want to cut off someone’s arms for it.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - Governments can be immoral themselves. They can operate immorally. The punishments they hand out can be immoral. But that fact in no way makes an immoral act now suddenly moral. You just end up with 2 immoral acts.
No, I don't support the killing of homosexuals or cutting their arms off. I most certainly argue that it is not a natural thing but that seems like it's best suited for another post. Mainly because this one has gone on long enough but also because I believe it's wrong because the Bible says it is and since I believe the Bible is the Word of God, you won't change my mind unless you can show me something in the Bible that affirms your stance on it.
Oh, just to make it clear, I in no way turn my nose up at homosexuals. I am a much bigger sinner than most, if not all of them. I'm a Christian because I need the blood of Christ, NOT because I'm without sin. If I was perfect, I wouldn't need Him.
No, I don't support the killing of homosexuals or cutting their arms off. I most certainly argue that it is not a natural thing but that seems like it's best suited for another post. Mainly because this one has gone on long enough but also because I believe it's wrong because the Bible says it is and since I believe the Bible is the Word of God, you won't change my mind unless you can show me something in the Bible that affirms your stance on it.
Oh, just to make it clear, I in no way turn my nose up at homosexuals. I am a much bigger sinner than most, if not all of them. I'm a Christian because I need the blood of Christ, NOT because I'm without sin. If I was perfect, I wouldn't need Him.
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SGT (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) - Scott, you’re right, I don’t think you’re mind is changing. This will be my final response in this thread. The Bible isn’t the end all/be all. It’s a book, written by a lot of men over a long period of time, a long time time ago. It’s been translated, retranslated, and retranslated again. I wouldn’t teach out of an algebra book written 2000 years ago, and the math principles at least will have stayed constant over time.
But I digress. I prefer to base my beliefs on how the world is. Please see attached article. It’s brief but descriptive. There are countless studies that observed this phenomenon in many species in nature. The information is there if you look at it. So maybe...just maybe...it’s natural for small portions of the population (including ours) to be homosexual.
Adherence to dogmatic thinking (ie: if it’s not in the Bible , it’s bad! Show me where in the Bible, etc) can lead you down some dangerous roads. Dogmatic thinking generally leads a person to KNOW they’re right. In military terms...that’ll take you ouchtown quickly.
For a whole other thread that verifies what I mean, google LTG Van Riper and MC02. Seriously. Interesting stuff, and not many people know about what happened, which is unfortunate.
The Bible says a lots of weird shit. Stoning of non virgins, fatherless children not allowed in churches, men who’ve had genitals removed, not allowed in churches...all in the Bible. All awful. (Disclaimer, most religious texts are full of horrible shit. We just happen to be currently talking about the Bible).
Be good to people, especially children and the elderly. Gives stray dogs some food and water. Donate to charity and don’t write it off on your taxes. Sit through a red light on an empty road in the middle of the night. You know, generally just be ‘good’. None of that is in the Bible, Quran or any other book, yet we should all do those things because theyre good things to do. Accept that the majority of the world has a different idea of what ‘good’ is.
And oh yeah don’t forget, about 5-10% of hundreds and hundreds of species in the world, including humans, including humans you work with (and probably at least a cousin or uncle) is homosexual.
Great chat, Scott. Keep it up, you’re getting there. But don’t forget, if you’re not constantly learning, evolving...you’re losing. Getting pinned down in the Bible is the same as getting pinned down in a firefight.
Good talk. While this is my last response in this thread, I’m genuinely curious as your opinion to it. Or feel free to message me
http://www.yalescientific.org/2012/03/do-animals-exhibit-homosexuality/
But I digress. I prefer to base my beliefs on how the world is. Please see attached article. It’s brief but descriptive. There are countless studies that observed this phenomenon in many species in nature. The information is there if you look at it. So maybe...just maybe...it’s natural for small portions of the population (including ours) to be homosexual.
Adherence to dogmatic thinking (ie: if it’s not in the Bible , it’s bad! Show me where in the Bible, etc) can lead you down some dangerous roads. Dogmatic thinking generally leads a person to KNOW they’re right. In military terms...that’ll take you ouchtown quickly.
For a whole other thread that verifies what I mean, google LTG Van Riper and MC02. Seriously. Interesting stuff, and not many people know about what happened, which is unfortunate.
The Bible says a lots of weird shit. Stoning of non virgins, fatherless children not allowed in churches, men who’ve had genitals removed, not allowed in churches...all in the Bible. All awful. (Disclaimer, most religious texts are full of horrible shit. We just happen to be currently talking about the Bible).
Be good to people, especially children and the elderly. Gives stray dogs some food and water. Donate to charity and don’t write it off on your taxes. Sit through a red light on an empty road in the middle of the night. You know, generally just be ‘good’. None of that is in the Bible, Quran or any other book, yet we should all do those things because theyre good things to do. Accept that the majority of the world has a different idea of what ‘good’ is.
And oh yeah don’t forget, about 5-10% of hundreds and hundreds of species in the world, including humans, including humans you work with (and probably at least a cousin or uncle) is homosexual.
Great chat, Scott. Keep it up, you’re getting there. But don’t forget, if you’re not constantly learning, evolving...you’re losing. Getting pinned down in the Bible is the same as getting pinned down in a firefight.
Good talk. While this is my last response in this thread, I’m genuinely curious as your opinion to it. Or feel free to message me
http://www.yalescientific.org/2012/03/do-animals-exhibit-homosexuality/
Do Animals Exhibit Homosexuality?
Recent research has found that homosexual behavior in animals may be much more common than previously thought. Although Darwin’s theory of natural selection predicts an evolutionary disadvantage for animals that fail to pass along their traits through reproduction with the opposite sex, the validity of this part of his theory has been questioned with the…
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MAJ (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - I appreciate your ability to talk about this without getting mad. That attribute is getting rarer and rarer these days.
I'm anything but pinned down by the Bible. I've studied it. I've studied the "bad" parts and the uncomfortable parts. I've listened to people and read books arguing for and against it. It is true. The warm, cozy parts as well as the R-rated parts.
Being "generally good" makes you a nice person but it doesn't save your soul. Heaven is real. Hell is real. Being good doesn't cut it. You must be perfect, which of course none of us are. But Christ was and He paid the price for us. In this respect Christianity is unlike any other religion, ever. I hope you come to see this someday.
Likewise, feel free to message me if you'd like. I'm always open to civil conversation.
Aim small, miss small.
I'm anything but pinned down by the Bible. I've studied it. I've studied the "bad" parts and the uncomfortable parts. I've listened to people and read books arguing for and against it. It is true. The warm, cozy parts as well as the R-rated parts.
Being "generally good" makes you a nice person but it doesn't save your soul. Heaven is real. Hell is real. Being good doesn't cut it. You must be perfect, which of course none of us are. But Christ was and He paid the price for us. In this respect Christianity is unlike any other religion, ever. I hope you come to see this someday.
Likewise, feel free to message me if you'd like. I'm always open to civil conversation.
Aim small, miss small.
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