Posted on Mar 3, 2014
SFC Security Consulting Systems Engineer
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I believe we need to remove the ability to enlist as anything other than a Private (PVT/E-1). The only exception would be for enlistees already holding an Associate's degree (PV2/E-2) or Bachelor's degree (PFC/E-3) and maybe a highly sought after language. I also think we should increase the time between automatic promotions between PVT - SPC.<div><br></div><div>I would suggest the following:</div><div>PVT -&gt; PV2: 1 year TIG/TIS (9 mo. TIG/TIS with waiver)</div><div>PV2 -&gt; PFC: 1 year TIG/ 2 years TIS (9 mo. TIG/18 mo. TIS)&nbsp;</div><div>PFC -&gt; SPC: 1 year TIG/ 3 years TIS (9 mo. TIG/27 mo. TIS)</div><div><br></div><div>This would reduce personnel costs and create a lot more responsibility for the Specialists. Rank would have much more meaning and most initial entry soldiers would arrive to their first unit still a Private. It would allow a great deal more growth in experience. Currently in most units the majority of junior soldiers are Private First Classes and Specialists. This creates an environment were the majority of junior soldiers feel they are only one rank below Sergeants and I believe somewhat weakens/cheapens the rank.</div><div><br></div><div>Any thoughts?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
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SGT James Elphick
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I think the current system works pretty well but if there were to be a change and becoming an E-4 was supposed to be more rigorous I think there should be more use of the corporal rank. And if that is the case then we should probably also bring back the higher specialist ranks. The reason the rank system in the Marine Corps works so well with is that E-3's are often team leaders and are given responsibilities. In the Army this often isn't even the case with E-4's. So I think the issue might have more to do with how responsibility in the Army works more so than what rank someone holds.
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SSG Genaro Negrete
SSG Genaro Negrete
11 y
I couldn't have said it better my self. The army allows, even encourages, junior enlisted soldiers to coast through four pay grades. That's four promotions, four increases in salary. The specialist rank should have been eliminated when they authorized the combat action badge. The modern professional soldier is expected to be both a proficient tactician and a technical expert in their field. By allowing the "sham shield" to exist, we are giving soldiers an excuse to leech off of the military.
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SSG Jed Fisher
SSG Jed Fisher
11 y
I'm a bit of an expert, having made SPC seven times. The SPC rank needs to go away. I saw plenty of combat arms E-4s with leader tabs and holding E-6 slots in combat arms, wearing SPC rank, and then over at admin, a little 1 yr TIS Soldier wearing CPL rank, in charge of nobody.
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SSG Genaro Negrete
SSG Genaro Negrete
11 y
It grinds my gears that the Army allows SPC's to hold NCO slots and then has no formal way to have that service recognized in an evaluation. The quality of counseling is at the mercy of the particular NCO writing it. Even if it's absolutely immaculate, big Army will never see it. It will never be used to set the soldier apart at levels above the current unit he/she is in. It's a cop-out. I am all for training and mentoring soldiers for responsibilities at the next level, but let's not just toss them to the wolves with no pay or long term career incentive.
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SGT Leif Lynch
SGT Leif Lynch
>1 y
I was a 2 year SPC holding an E-6 slot at BDE.. My counseling statements were a joke and got me nothing in the long run.. I learned to deal with senior NCOs who fell under me but that was about the only thing beneficial to me. Things the army needs to look at since they are the one who promotes without a test of MOS is not every MOS is the same.. If you want to keep soldiers who are good at their job you need to change the standards and not generalize them. Otherwise, you will find more and more of them doing the same thing I did, which is jump over to civil service or contract and make more money and promote faster.
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SSG Robert Burns
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I have to say that when I get a new grad, the last thing they feel is they are just one rank below Sergeants.  They are actually terrified.  When my PFC's make SPC, it's a pretty big deal and a LOT of responsibility.
I hear what you're saying but I don't think TIG has anything to do with someone respected the rank that they have.  I think that the current TIG requirements give plenty of time for growth and development at that level.
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SSG Robert Burns
SSG Robert Burns
>1 y
I think it's also important to remember how much money that is (or isn't).  Do you want to spend 3 years in the Army and just now making E3 pay?  That about $2k/month which comes out to be about the equivalent of an $11/hr job.  BEFORE taxes.  Could your family live off of that?
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SSG Operations
SSG (Join to see)
11 y
Just ask the Marines, a lot of them ETS as only E3s because they could not make NCO rank. (E4)
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SSG Genaro Negrete
SSG Genaro Negrete
11 y
That ability to be selective for their CPL ranks in the Marines may stem from the overall size of their branch. Not that many CPL slots that need filling.

Just to play devil's advocate here, why couldn't the family live off of that? Does BAH and BAS get taken into account? I'll admit the quality of life may not be luxurious, but it is manageable in the short term.
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SPC David S.
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Edited >1 y ago
I don't think rank is the problem I think more responsibility needs to pushed onto these ranks especially E-4 as this is the last rank before taking on the NCO ranks. I felt that when I was in other NCO's in my unit did a good job of putting some of the leadership role on me. The 'OK SPC what do I do now' scenario was always at play and I had to have my brain in the game. On the other side I would see my friends from other units just being oxygen thieves sitting in a Humvee getting a sun tan.
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Its time to change Time in Service and Time in Grade requirements for PVT through SPC?
SFC MLRS/HIMARS Crewmember
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The same could be said all the way through to E-7 or E-8. We've all seen soldiers who get promoted quickly later struggle because of a lack of TIG to develop and hone their skills as leaders. Experience is vital to produce well-rounded leaders, and sometimes experience takes time. I was fortunate to go through E-1 to E-4 on Active, and my Sergeants piled on the responsibilities, mentored me, and prepared me for success. I've been promoted to E-5 and E-6 in the Guard, and in a lot of ways the extra years in grade have been very beneficial.
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SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA
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Edited >1 y ago
I was a pilot for an allied air force, I had 2 bachelors and close to 20 years of work experience when I enlisted.

My recruiting station CO and NCOIC had me all set to come in as a SPC with endorsements and letters to go Green to Gold or WOCS/Flight School as soon as I was done with AIT.

Somehow, my packet with the transcripts and letters were lost at Reception Bn., so when it was time to in-process for initial rank of entry...I was put in as a PVT/E1.

After finishing basic and AIT, by the time I arrived at my first unit, I was a PV2.

My CO and leadership couldn't believe the combination of qualifications vs. low rank, but regulations are what they are, so instead of early promotions, they put me in positions of responsibility.

As a PFC as I was placed on orders as Unit Armorer (by MTOE an E6 slot)
As a PFC I was recommended to be an Apache 500 hr Phase Inspection Team Leader after I ended working alone on another Apache Phase Inspection with then Phase Team Leader. (Brigade said no but they took notice)
Then as a SPC I was sent to ASIST training to be a gatekeeper. (Everyone else was E6 and above)

I was sent to the Board at 27 mos TIS and 4 mos TIG. Passed it, made points shortly after and here I am.

Moral of the long winded bio?

Sometimes not everyone has to come in as PVT. Life experience sometimes matter a lot more than a rank.

Most of what a new soldier does at its first duty station is mop the floor, clean the latrines, take the CO and 1SG trash, etc. So the suggestion of keeping them in rank longer so they can "learn the ropes" is not necessary or fair from my point of view.
The current system of zones is working fine. Mediocre soldiers will stay in rank longer, good soldiers advance in PZ and exceptional soldiers make it on SZ.

Just my $0.02.
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LTC Program Manager
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This looks like another solution without a problem.
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SFC(P) Detachment Sergeant
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TIS doesnt equal effective leadership capabilities. Some people get promoted too fast and become toxic but I think the system we have now is just fine. Its more so on our leaders to get out of the "good ol boy" system and stop recommending "trash" to be future leaders.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
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Edited 11 y ago
I'm inclined to go with the "double pay grade" system.

To make E-2, minimum 4 years TIS.
E-3, 6 years TIS.
E-4, 8 years TIS.
E-5, 10 years, E-6 12 years, E-7 14 years, so on and so forth...

We need to ensure that people have the experience necessary to hold the grades they are assigned, or, to paraphrase, "you can't teach what you don't know", and mentorship/instruction/training is one of our primary purposes/duties...
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SSG Lance Shamer
SSG Lance Shamer
11 y
I have to say that I completely agree. promotions are still way too fast.
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SFC Maintenance Supervisor
SFC (Join to see)
8 y
I have to say that with 24 years in the Military, I have realized that time does not equal experience. Experience isn't how many times you do something, but how many times you do it right. I have seen some E-4's lead a Platoon better than some E-7's. It is up to the Senior Enlisted to ensure the Lower Enlisted get the training and mentorship they require to be successful. Don't blame the system, blame the leadership for failing at their job.
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SGT Suraj Dave
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Wow. I made SGT in 3 years. In this system, I would have been a PFC. I am so incredibly happy I joined the Army when I did...
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SSG Zachery Mitchell
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Edited >1 y ago
I've been saying something similar to this for awhile. I think we should adopt a similar system to what the Marine Corps uses. E1 - E3 is essentially automatic but you, aka THE SOLDIER, would have to work his or her butt of and earn E4. I think we'd have a lot less screw ups if they had to work for the little bit of rank they have instead of it being handed to them.
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SFC Signal Support Systems Specialist
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
Do away with Specialist and had only Corporal, thats truly the difference between The Army and our sister services, We have e-4's who aren't NCO's
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SSG Zachery Mitchell
SSG Zachery Mitchell
>1 y
I agree. Do away with SPC, make E4 strictly CPL and make them earn it. More pride. More discipline. A lot of SPC's are glorified PVT's with the way they behave. Don't get me wrong, there are also a lot of outstanding SPC's outs there. That's why I say make them earn E4, no more SPC rank, only CPL and you'll still have your outstanding ones and it will weed out a lot of Soldiers that just don't cut the mustard. I'm sure there would still be some to slip through the cracks and get promoted just like some SGT's get promoted that don't necessarily deserve it, but I think there would be a lot less problems from E4's if they were CPLs getting treated like NCO's and had to work hard to earn it.
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SGT Suraj Dave
SGT Suraj Dave
11 y
We would probably save money if we forced soldiers to earn E4. Many would be content stuck at E3. Theres a nice difference in pay between those 2 pay grades.
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SPC Gunner
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I would have to agree with SPC David Stephenson. Its all very dependent on the unit. While I was in Korea there was a lot of responsibility placed on me. As a E2 I was holding a delta position (E4 Position) only after a few months when I made E3 I was to moved to a hold position (E5 Postion) which made me 2nd in command of the track and my NCO was tasking me to conduct room checks in the morning and after work for my delta who was an E3 along with typing up and closing out monthly counseling. Do to taskings happening a lot of the time my chief was not around so I was attending leaders briefs in the mornings and after work and conducting the day to day work. So I myself accredit my knowledge and drive to the fact I was placed in charge and was look to carry out tasks given to me because I had to and there wasn't a NCO there to lead the way. So I believe more responsibility needs to be place upon lower enlisted not just TIG.
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SPC Gunner
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8 y
I apologize for the horrible sentence structure, was in a hurry to leave my opinion.
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SFC Inprocessing
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Negative. The TIG/TIS structure still provides a time line for low performing Service Members an undeserved advancement while simultaneously keeping high performing Service Members from advancing. This system is why a majority of good quality Soldiers leave the Army. Promotions should be based on performance. Until the last year or so, Army Officers could pin Captain in 3 years. What's the justification for forcing Enlisted members to wait 3-4+ years for promotion to SGT when an Officer can make CPT in that time...? I've had a Soldier that we pinned E-5 with less than 3 years TIS and didn't recommend a promotion for some with more than 4-6 years TIS. You earn what you work hard for.
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SPC Edward Tapper
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What are your provisions for, let's say, a prior-service Marine Gunny who, after getting out of the Corps., decides after a year to enlist in the Army? Do you expect that kind of experience to be rewarded by enlisted as an E-1? Were the Time in Service and Time in Grade requirements sufficient for your advancement to SSG / E-6?
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SPC Christopher Smith
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This would only work if we increased the pay scale, many of the SPC coming in the door would either Commission or not enter the Service. The pay would not match the personal expense of getting the degree. I don't think the current system cheapens the rank, I believe a cultural attitude of point chasing has cheapened the rank system. All day every day you hear people talking about what classes they need for points, how many hours of online courses they need, if a maxed pt test and marksmanship will help or not. I believe if we changed the promotion system from a point system to a skill test and knowledge system we'd have less issues, and we would be promoting more of the right people.
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SFC Security Consulting Systems Engineer
SFC (Join to see)
11 y
My post is intended to be more of a thought piece than an absolute prescription. Basically, the premise is that the military is being called upon to find savings and cost cuts across the board. The NCO ranks have already had RCPs and TIG/TIS requirements made more stringent. Why should we not also do the same to the lower enlisted ranks? Especially since we only relaxed the requirements during the build up of the Army for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Appeals to emotion are quite simply rhetorical arguments, logical fallacies, that while understandable, do little to prove a position. Ideally, the military would continue to receive funding that increases to at least match inflation and supports a comfortable middle class career for all service members, but the unfortunate reality is that little political will exists to reduce other areas of the federal budget leaving the defense budget as the low lying fruit. Very little of the population has any real skin in the game where it concerns the military. This leaves a very thinly stretched military few recourses.
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SPC Christopher Smith
SPC Christopher Smith
11 y
I do not understand how your answer relates to my offered insight on the original topic. If we changed how peple got promoted maybe less people would worry about getting promoted and concentrate on understanding their jobs. Thus creating a system where people are sent up for promotion only when they have diminstrated the ability of fully understanding their position.

I was not attempting to provide an absolute answer, I was attempting to share a new way of possibly structuring the lower enlisted promotion system that agreed that junior enlisted personnel might benefit from staying in the lowwer ranks a little longer.

As far as my comment on SPC, the pay scale is easily found, I can't imagine too many people carrying a BA/BS taking a job for 1800 a month. Granted, yes, housing, and food might be provided. Those personnel have saved the military X amount of dollars not having to pay for their education (unless they are student loan repayment).

Overall, I'm just sharing different ideas that may or may not have been thought about.
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SPC Christopher Smith
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