Posted on Nov 1, 2014
Lobbyist groups are advocating lowering standards for female infantry
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http://www.gruntreport.com/u-s-marine-corps-might-lower-combat-standards-for-women/
Again, the government hasnt done this, but now groups are lobbying for lowering standards for equality purposes.
Thoughts? (I am against it)
Again, the government hasnt done this, but now groups are lobbying for lowering standards for equality purposes.
Thoughts? (I am against it)
Posted in these groups: Infantry Center (Army)
Women in the Military
Women in the Military
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 59
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Tell them to f--king go "lobby" elsewhere! Or maybe these "lobbyists" should go ask all our enemies, foreign and domestic, to lower their standards so we don't have to fight so hard.
Golly gee whiz, ISIS guys could you please stop lopping heads off and only fire pistols instead of AK-47s and RPGs, pretty please???
Golly gee whiz, ISIS guys could you please stop lopping heads off and only fire pistols instead of AK-47s and RPGs, pretty please???
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CW5 (Join to see)
GREAT image, MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca! I use the term fairly frequently. It's nice to see it in picture form.
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I am all for equality, but if a person (note I did not specify gender) cannot meet the standard for infantry, that person should not BE infantry.
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SGT Suraj Dave
I am beginning to notice,
the feminist version of Equality isn't equality. I am still waiting for someone to propose that women be required to register for Selective Services.
the feminist version of Equality isn't equality. I am still waiting for someone to propose that women be required to register for Selective Services.
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1LT Nick Kidwell
Most of the feminists I interact with are pretty spot on with equality, as in equality means JUST that, not women > men.
There are just some people who think that discrimination against the dominant demographic is the proper response to discrimination perpetrated by the dominant group.
There are just some people who think that discrimination against the dominant demographic is the proper response to discrimination perpetrated by the dominant group.
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SGT Suraj Dave
According to those feminist organizations proposing this it is, but it doesn't look like equality. No one has really even spoken about making women participate in the Selective Services act (which I wouldnt advocate for, but equality means accepting the good and the bad. not just good.)
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LTC (Join to see)
CSM, I agree. Equality also denotes an equal chance to fail and not meet the criteria. Equality is not a guarantee to qualify or past a exam, a test or get a position you are competing for.
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LTC (Join to see)
Interesting point I had not given much thought to. If we are all equal to participate in combat shouldn't everyone be required to register for selective service?
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Absolutely, positively, awful. The three Marines didn't ask that damn group to speak for them.
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CPT (Join to see)
This is what happens. It becomes about the show and not about what is going on in the show. I hope they are ignored as the Marines are never willing to accept changes.
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Abso-f-ing-lutely Not!!!! Hell no! Our enemies don't lower the standard for killing! WTF
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Bad idea. As the article says: "It would entirely undercut the value of their achievement, and diminish the overall fighting capacity of the Marine Corps."
Not only that, but do we want to lower the standards on any combat-related training for anyone? I think not. Those lower standards could result in higher casualty rates in combat.
The article also says that even the women candidates themselves don't want the standards lowered.
Not only that, but do we want to lower the standards on any combat-related training for anyone? I think not. Those lower standards could result in higher casualty rates in combat.
The article also says that even the women candidates themselves don't want the standards lowered.
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SGT Suraj Dave
Almost makes you want to evaluate some of those feminist organization's definition of equality....
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MSgt (Join to see)
Not the first time someone or some group has felt those affected should feel offended and or singled out and won't stand up for themselves. So they will act in their stead and do what's right for them. Even if those affected say or feel no harm no foul no offense taken. BS correctness is ruining America.
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LCpl Steve Wininger
SGT Suraj Dave I suspect the feminist raising the stink wouldn't know which end of a rifle to pull the trigger from. If they are so up in arms over it, then I suggest they be given a one way ticket to fight with the Kurdish women.
Then if they still have a complaint, let em lobby ISIS for a change.
Then if they still have a complaint, let em lobby ISIS for a change.
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The standard is the minimum required to do the job effectively. The military was not someplace where "affirmative action" is desired. They had women pass to current standard. It can be done. Leave it be.
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CPT (Join to see)
I totally agree. It they could tangible complete the course already they would be there. It is really just a physical thing. Easier tasks such as a Bradley gunnery or EIB are not that difficult and really any soldier could do it.
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SGT Suraj Dave I think I can accurately predict you will get one, maybe two at most advocates for changing standards here on RP. Those of us actually in the military are all pretty much in agreement on this topic: standards shouldn't change, 'cause combat doesn't care. Combat doesn't care what color, sex or sexual orientation you are. Neither should we, on either the pro or anti-side. As your article pointed out, none of the Female Marines who have attempted these courses and failed have asked for reduced standards. Some of us may advocate increased standardization (as i did in this very similar thread) like the same PFT, maybe the same uniform etc. Some of us like CPT (Join to see) may be conflicted on how long we extend the competition and option to women, how many we allow to fail before closing the option generally, but none of us are going to promote changing the standard.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/marine-corps-infantry-officer-course-and-female-marines-gauging-females-in-combat-roles
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/marine-corps-infantry-officer-course-and-female-marines-gauging-females-in-combat-roles
Marine Corps Infantry Officer Course and Female Marines, gauging females in combat roles |...
Through out the military there has been a push for female service members to join their brothers in some of the most challenging assignments in combat units. The Marines are by far the most adamant about proving this. They are steps beyond where the other services are in their own integration of females in combat roles. They are finding the cold hard truth. It really doesn't matter what one thinks is fair, as in requiring females to performing...
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MSG Brad Sand
Gentlemen,
If you read the story closely, they did lower the standards and these 6 still failed! Instead of 9 miles in 3 hours, they were given almost four?
I have two questions from the story. First, Marine Corps's Infantry Officers Course is not an entry level course right? These are Marines who have had to attend BCT, or equivalent? What is up the scarves? I might be able to understand the desert camouflage one but the red one is a definite NoGo where I came from.
If you read the story closely, they did lower the standards and these 6 still failed! Instead of 9 miles in 3 hours, they were given almost four?
I have two questions from the story. First, Marine Corps's Infantry Officers Course is not an entry level course right? These are Marines who have had to attend BCT, or equivalent? What is up the scarves? I might be able to understand the desert camouflage one but the red one is a definite NoGo where I came from.
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Capt Richard I P.
MSG Brad Sand, good questions, if you checked out my comments on the other thread, I alluded to how the real test of this evolution is more about mental toughness and hanging with the team than completing the miles under the clock in specific, which is why the performance of these six is considered failure.
This school is after OCS and The Basic School. Marines at this school have already been pre screened. Very few Officers are offered the opportunity in the first place.
The picture in the article from the Christian Science Monitor linked on the other thread is not from IOC. It appears to be a Female Engagement Team in Afghanistan. Some commanders there have authorized Marines to wear scarves of varying colors, Marines often feel they serve as a connection with the community.
This school is after OCS and The Basic School. Marines at this school have already been pre screened. Very few Officers are offered the opportunity in the first place.
The picture in the article from the Christian Science Monitor linked on the other thread is not from IOC. It appears to be a Female Engagement Team in Afghanistan. Some commanders there have authorized Marines to wear scarves of varying colors, Marines often feel they serve as a connection with the community.
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CPT (Join to see)
I totally agree with you. I would not be dragging this out to let it play out in the media and congress. It seems like they are slowing easing their way into getting what they want. It may take years till they are able to get what they want. I think there will be a push for it and it will backfire.
The Marines opened this up in 2012 and I don't see an end in sight. The only reason it is there is due to SECDEF making them look into opening all MOSs to women.
Even if the next women was to pass it would not be favorable to the service. I am tracking that there has been 27 failures. If the next one passed the success rate would be 3%. I simply can not see that being sustainable or worth it. When soldiers what to try for SF selection you have to realize it is catered to a specific group. It is catered to young, fit, smart, and most importantly soldiers from combat arms. That is not saying that they are the only group but if you were a food inspector you may want to consider your decisions.
The Marines opened this up in 2012 and I don't see an end in sight. The only reason it is there is due to SECDEF making them look into opening all MOSs to women.
Even if the next women was to pass it would not be favorable to the service. I am tracking that there has been 27 failures. If the next one passed the success rate would be 3%. I simply can not see that being sustainable or worth it. When soldiers what to try for SF selection you have to realize it is catered to a specific group. It is catered to young, fit, smart, and most importantly soldiers from combat arms. That is not saying that they are the only group but if you were a food inspector you may want to consider your decisions.
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SSgt (Join to see)
I agree with you Capt Porter the first step to full integration should have been standardizing the PFT and CFT across the Marine Corps. How can we implement integration while still holding people to different standards? Either we are the same or we are not, and if we are the standards should reflect that.
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This is a horrible idea. Infantry is supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be intense. It's not supposed to be like t-ball where everyone gets a trophy just for participating. If you want to be infantry, then you need to be able to handle the demands of infantry. If not, then you shouldn't demand that they be lowered so you can participate.
This will get people killed if they do it.
This will get people killed if they do it.
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The military is not a political party or politician. It should not be subject to the whims of lobbyists, not ever. Whoever receives this "lobby request", should they be wearing a uniform, should tell them "duly noted, move out and draw fire."
Oh, you're a lobbyist? Cool story, bro. I have a lobby right out by the glass doors, there's a Staff Duty NCO and a Duty Driver. Go ask them what you can do to help clean my lobby. Ever worked a floor buffer? POUND SAND, troop.
Oh, you're a lobbyist? Cool story, bro. I have a lobby right out by the glass doors, there's a Staff Duty NCO and a Duty Driver. Go ask them what you can do to help clean my lobby. Ever worked a floor buffer? POUND SAND, troop.
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