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How much training does officers get on NCOERS? I've seen a rise in LT's that have no idea about NCOER's. I have no problem helping them but it seems to me that they dont have the slightest idea.
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Training
Training
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 17
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When I has a Platoon Sergeant, I made sure that my PL counseled me IAW with regulations and also drafted my NCOER. After his draft, we sat down and we talked over each section and each bullet. That was what I like to call professional development for my PL. While my PLs usually had the raw facts there, they needed the education and development to massage those facts into bullet comments for a NCOER. That served a few end states. First and foremost, it ensured that we collaborated on my evaluation to ensure that everything was covered in a quantifiable way. Secondly, I believe that I was providing that development to my PL for when he was a CO CDR rating a 1SG and into the future.
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MAJ (Join to see)
MSG Stankovich,
Exactly! If the CO doesn't counsel the 1SG, then how can anyone expect counseling to exist elsewhere in the unit? I was just discussing this same topic earlier today.
However, it goes back to approach as well. Always know your people and treat them with respect regardless of rank.
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I have always followed the philosophy the LTs are PVTs with shinny things. Sorry LTs but what I am trying to say is that, in the same way it is an NCOs job to train JR Soldiers, it is the Senior NCOs job to train the JR Officers. As a Platoon Sergeant, I always took personal responsibility to keep my LT on the right path. This includes counseling and NCOERs. I also believe that how a Platoon Sergeant trains his LT (same for his Soldiers) at their first duty station molds what kind of Office (Soldier) he or she will be in the future. That said SFC Ward, if the LTs you have come into contact with recently have no idea about NCOER, I am sad to say that I think it is a direct reflection of our NCO corps. Please take them under you wing and show them the light!
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Unfortunately next to none, and even worse they are expected to show up and write evaluations for their counterparts? Nothing scares me more but a good development tool I use for both the officer and senior NCO is for both to write the evaluation and then bring them in to discuss with me what each one came up with. It provides honest feed back to the rated and always gives the Rater an opportunity to better understand how writing evaluations for NCOs works. I have spent countless hours providing mentorship to officers on writing evaluations and have even assisted them in completing the final draft when dealing with a less than productive NCO. I truly wish the officer basic course would spend more time in this arena it would pay dividends to our NCOs futures and careers.
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They aren't supposed to write them... You write it for them and they sign it. If you got a good one, they will ask you why you wrote it the way you did so you don't have to write all of them.
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CPT (Join to see)
This is absolutely wrong! How are you developing that LT if they don't even write an NCOER. A good LT will write it themselves, asking for input. When I wrote my PSG his NCOER, I took his suggestions and wrote it myself.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
You are right, my original suggestion is as wrong as two boys with a football bat. If you were doing it right, you have had 5, yes, 5 sitdowns with your PSG and each of your squad leaders before the NCOERs came due.
During those Initial counselings and quarterlies and final counselings you AND they wrote the rough drafts for the Final Product. In the process, you and they, mentored each other, developed an understanding of what teamwork, responsibility and leadership was about, and hopefully were able to develop that trust and cohesion of purpose required for a command team as well as the Chain of Command and the relationship between the leader and the led.
If you waited until the two week suspense notification to decide what they were supposed to be responsible for... Anyway, that's a story about a $3 bill.
During those Initial counselings and quarterlies and final counselings you AND they wrote the rough drafts for the Final Product. In the process, you and they, mentored each other, developed an understanding of what teamwork, responsibility and leadership was about, and hopefully were able to develop that trust and cohesion of purpose required for a command team as well as the Chain of Command and the relationship between the leader and the led.
If you waited until the two week suspense notification to decide what they were supposed to be responsible for... Anyway, that's a story about a $3 bill.
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SGM (Join to see)
I absolutely despise NCOs writing their own NCOERs. Done correctly it should be a middle point of the NCO writing what they see and the rater writing what they see.
My previous CDR wanted to properly counsel me so I told him we would work together on it. He would fill the 2166-8-1 out but leave some space for me to write in my thoughts too. Each session he would sit me down and talk about what he saw and I would tell him what I saw. We would put it all on the support form and had a great flowing and working copy NCOER. When it came time to do my NCOER early because of an unexpected departure from Afghanistan we took all of the support forms and cranked out an NCOER.
Probably one of the best NCOERs I have ever received and that reason was because we both worked on it.
NCOs just need to go see their raters and say "Hey, when are you going to knock out my NCOER counseling"? I bet if more NCOs got involved and pushed their raters we would see better NCOERs and better trained raters.
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I've done ncoer classed with LTs, and they look at the material like its something they never heard of. Not sure if they get any training at all, or if they do, they don't have that foresight, confidence or courage to truly rate their NCO. But on the other hand, they automatically outrank all NCOs and are ultimately put in charge or in command of their element, so they need to learn.
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I had a block of intruction in ROTC, but I had no idea what I was looking at. We didn't even cover it in BOLC. First time I saw an NCOER was when I was senior rater for a Team Leader. And to this day I've only written 2 NCOERs for my PSGs. But, as much as I struggle with them I will also turn to an NCO for help.
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Seriously? I write it for them??? negative! How is he/she suppose to learn... Ok but that's not what I asked. Thanks for your input.
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1SG Alan Bailey
I disagree you should never write you own report card, it is the duty of your rater to write it, as a senior NCO we train them and show them how to write it, provide them the manuals to do it. You have to make them do your initial and quarterly counseling and that will assest them in writing it.
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I would say that it truly all depends on your BOLC and your instructors within that class. I was fortunate to have a very strong Platoon trainer and Platoon Sergeant in IBOLC that made it a point to give a strong class on the topic (yes it was only one day of classes). In addition to a strong class they provided us with products from their own initial counseling with each other as well as NCOER's they had worked on together. While we only had one day of training on the topic in IBOLC my instructors attempted to make sure we got the most out of that one day as possible.
Outside of IBOLC the rest of my training on the subject has been "OJT". I was very lucky to have 1SG Rink as my first 1SG and like he said above he saw it as part of his duty to help the young LT's learn what right looks like when counseling a PSG and writing NCO evaluations.
Unfortunately BOLC is forced to put priorities on so much different training that it is difficult to spend the neccessary amount of time on over 90% of the admin functions required of you as a young officer. IBOLC is 16 weeks long without a second of down time (minus your weekends) and I still felt like a fish out of water when I took my first platoon. Property accountability, counseling, evaluations, awards, and UCMJ/Silly soldier issues are just a few of things that we barely breezed over but consume a majority of your time. I agree that it would be great to have learned some of the nuances of these things in depth, but I also understand the time constraint the cadre face to develop capable officers within their branch.
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You are 100% correct they don't get trained in writing NCOERs - that is our job as senior NCOs. I just sat both of my Platoon Leaders down and we went through the counseling procedure for their Platoon Sergeants. I took a 2166-8-1 and filled it up about 75% with areas I know they need to be focusing on. I left room in each section for them to add their own goals.
I forced them to see how the counseling should go, what the focus should be and as we work through the process they will get trained on proper counseling and writing a good strong NCOER.
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From commission through the Career Course the OES provides Officers a few hours of discussion and 2 practical exercises on NCOERs and writing them. MSG Bailey and MSG Stankovich provided you the correct answer that it is the 1SG and CSM that review NCOERs and not write them. If these Senior NCOs are writing NCOERs we are effectively removing the Check and Balance from the rating system.
I was fortunate that I also had PLDC, BNCOC, and ANCOC along with some strong Senior NCOs that helped me learn to write NCOERs. As for my technique as an Officer I would have the rated NCO and myself draft bullets at the same time based on the counselings throughout the period and the Support Form. This provides the NCO training on crafting bullets and it allows us to come together and discuss and craft quantifiable bullets. My Senior NCOs and I rarely had NCOERs coming back for correction once submitted.
As for teaching my Officers how to write NCOERs it happened in review. I would check their counseling packets of their PSG just as I expected the 1SG and PSGs to be checking Squad Leader's counseling packets. I expected them to keep a draft NCOER at all times with goals and achievements. This allowed me to educate my Officers and allow them to craft discussions with their Senior NCO.
I was fortunate that I also had PLDC, BNCOC, and ANCOC along with some strong Senior NCOs that helped me learn to write NCOERs. As for my technique as an Officer I would have the rated NCO and myself draft bullets at the same time based on the counselings throughout the period and the Support Form. This provides the NCO training on crafting bullets and it allows us to come together and discuss and craft quantifiable bullets. My Senior NCOs and I rarely had NCOERs coming back for correction once submitted.
As for teaching my Officers how to write NCOERs it happened in review. I would check their counseling packets of their PSG just as I expected the 1SG and PSGs to be checking Squad Leader's counseling packets. I expected them to keep a draft NCOER at all times with goals and achievements. This allowed me to educate my Officers and allow them to craft discussions with their Senior NCO.
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