Posted on Aug 5, 2014
Millions of Arabs live in Israel but no Israeli's live in Gaza. Thoughts?
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Terrorism
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I don't think it matters. We humans can get so petty sometimes. People should live where they want, what makes them happy, what makes them want to flourish. Who cares about your religion, your race, your likes and dislikes. That is what makes freedom so special.
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I'm sitting in Tel Aviv right now and my perception is that the people in Israel want a better life, Im just not sure they know how to proceed..... or maybe the religions keep them from doing what is necessary to advance and build nicer buildings, tear down dilapidated buildings, etc.. generally speaking they do seem to dress nice.
The street markets are something else... you can get anything and everything regarding foods and house supplies. Also everyone seems to have a cell phone and like most countries they walk down the street staring at them blindly...
I have no real idea what I'm talking about, this is my first time in Israel and I've been here for 2 days so far. So this is just a thought and not even an opinion about anything.
So here's my opinion: Extreme dedication to any religion will keep you from advancing your material capitalist life. If your lifes ambition is complete dedication to your religion thats fine, but then you can't complain when others have more material things. When governments are run by dedicated religious people, capitalism takes a back seat.
One of the things I notice here is that the people don't have any priority to make personal stuff look nice. They have cars, scooters and places to live, but no or little money is spent on keeping or making them look appealing to other people who might be walking by. Many people might say thats an american personality to make things look nice for other people. But the facts are that when you take care of your scooter by cleaning it, waxing it, etc.... your also more probably keeping it in better maintenance and thus making it last a lot longer. In the long run its cheaper to take better care of your stuff.
I think the really great thing about America is the tolerance not only the government has but the people have for the freedom to believe and practice and live how you would like. Don't push me into religion and I won't push you into owning a high value business where you make a lot of money. The choice is yours.
I hope this was not to far off topic, this is just one dumb ass american's point of view from being here for 2 days. I know this subject goes a lot lot deeper.
Capitalist can't fix it because they don't understand what is in the minds of dedicated religious people. But dedicated religious people can't fix it either because making life better for others in not necessarily on the top of their agenda. Getting you to understand their way of life is what seems to be their agenda. But if they ever succeed in making you understand dedicated religion, capitalism will cease because you can't have both (unless your a tv Evangelist).
The street markets are something else... you can get anything and everything regarding foods and house supplies. Also everyone seems to have a cell phone and like most countries they walk down the street staring at them blindly...
I have no real idea what I'm talking about, this is my first time in Israel and I've been here for 2 days so far. So this is just a thought and not even an opinion about anything.
So here's my opinion: Extreme dedication to any religion will keep you from advancing your material capitalist life. If your lifes ambition is complete dedication to your religion thats fine, but then you can't complain when others have more material things. When governments are run by dedicated religious people, capitalism takes a back seat.
One of the things I notice here is that the people don't have any priority to make personal stuff look nice. They have cars, scooters and places to live, but no or little money is spent on keeping or making them look appealing to other people who might be walking by. Many people might say thats an american personality to make things look nice for other people. But the facts are that when you take care of your scooter by cleaning it, waxing it, etc.... your also more probably keeping it in better maintenance and thus making it last a lot longer. In the long run its cheaper to take better care of your stuff.
I think the really great thing about America is the tolerance not only the government has but the people have for the freedom to believe and practice and live how you would like. Don't push me into religion and I won't push you into owning a high value business where you make a lot of money. The choice is yours.
I hope this was not to far off topic, this is just one dumb ass american's point of view from being here for 2 days. I know this subject goes a lot lot deeper.
Capitalist can't fix it because they don't understand what is in the minds of dedicated religious people. But dedicated religious people can't fix it either because making life better for others in not necessarily on the top of their agenda. Getting you to understand their way of life is what seems to be their agenda. But if they ever succeed in making you understand dedicated religion, capitalism will cease because you can't have both (unless your a tv Evangelist).
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PO2 Allan Muller
I visited Israel when I was 12 in 1958. Tel Aviv was very different than now. My fathers sister and husband emigrated in 1933 from Germany. They had two sons, both fought in the 1948 war, they are my 1st cousins. We spent a week there. I would like to go back, but, I don't think I will make it.
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I'm not sure there's any logic to argue there. The fact that in the town I grew up in there were no Muslims, few Asians, indeed few or none of anything but Caucasian Christians and a few Jews did not make us racist. Of course, it didn't mean there weren't some racists in the town (I'm sure there were). Similarly, there are definitely racists in various highly diverse locations - France, New York City, Los Angeles, Boston, and the list goes on...
The argument would be far better if it addressed things like whether Arabs or Jews were evicted by the authorities in either jurisdiction (side point: the Gaza strip is not a "state," nor is the Palestinian Authority, of which Gaza is a part). Further, what are the policies of the government regarding religious and ethnic tolerance and civil rights? Are those policies enforced? Are the rules for citizenship the same regardless of religious or ethnic affiliation?
Just a comparison, South Africa under apartheid had millions of non-whites living in the country. Could the governing White minority claim it wasn't racist because there were millions of non-whites?
The argument would be far better if it addressed things like whether Arabs or Jews were evicted by the authorities in either jurisdiction (side point: the Gaza strip is not a "state," nor is the Palestinian Authority, of which Gaza is a part). Further, what are the policies of the government regarding religious and ethnic tolerance and civil rights? Are those policies enforced? Are the rules for citizenship the same regardless of religious or ethnic affiliation?
Just a comparison, South Africa under apartheid had millions of non-whites living in the country. Could the governing White minority claim it wasn't racist because there were millions of non-whites?
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PO3 John Jeter
As partition came close, the Israelis knew of the struggle they were about to face. They asked the Palestinians to stay and help build a country. They were offered a part in the government. They promised the Palestinians they could keep their land and their homes in peace. All they had to do was NOT fight against Israel. The surrounding Arab countries told the Palestinians "You're in the way. Evacuate your land and when we have slaughtered the Jews you can have their lands and homes." Well history shows what happened. In actuality the Palestinian people have been abused far worse by their Arab 'Broithers' than the Israelis ever could. Slum camps, no country to call their own. Anyone who even suggests living in peace is murdered. It's a vicious cycle of oppression and terror maintained by religious mania...... Nazi Germany was built on using the Jews and communists as scapegoats, the Arab world just narrowed the field......Keeps things simple....
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PO2 Allan Muller
Rules and laws in Israel are same for Jews and non-Jews. Citizenship is the same. Any Jewish person has the "Right of Return" unless you're a criminal, then you're not wanted. Holy sites of other religions are protected and respected by the Jewish population. As for the Gaza strip, it is not a part of the Palestinian Authority. Residence of Gaza voted Hamas to be in charge. The PA wants to be in charge after the war, Israel will NOT allow that, it would be exchanging one terrorist organization for another.
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Jews also live in Iran peacefully, so what's the point? Also, let's look at how those Arabs are treated in Israel...
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/daily_life.html
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/daily_life.html
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PO3 John Jeter
Try Wikipedia. They report a reduction from 100,000 in 1979 to approximately 25,000 in 2009 to less than 9,000 in 2014. Seems a bit indicative to me.......
A quote from the Wikipedia article : "An example of the dilemma of Iranian Jews can be observed in this example :"We hear the ayatollah say that Israel was cooperating with the Shah and SAVAK, and we would be fools to say we support Israel. So we just keep quiet about it... Maybe it will work out. Anyway, what can we do? This is our home."
A quote from the Wikipedia article : "An example of the dilemma of Iranian Jews can be observed in this example :"We hear the ayatollah say that Israel was cooperating with the Shah and SAVAK, and we would be fools to say we support Israel. So we just keep quiet about it... Maybe it will work out. Anyway, what can we do? This is our home."
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SSG Charles Coats
Hmmm...I would question Wikikpedia's status as an unbiased source, (I found several sites that claim just the opposite) but with that being said, several things come to mind: if this is true, why isn't the media trumpeting it all over every channel that the exodus started then and is continuing? If so, this would be a huge PR boost for the war-mongering with regard to Iran.
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Sgt Wayne Wood
SSG Charles Coats - you doubt wikipedia but we're supposed to accept you as a source.... hmmm
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Gaza is a dump.
No Israelis live there because it is a dump... and openly hostile.
There are a ton of Palestinians crammed into a very tight space, subject to blockade, and governed by a terrorist organization.
But go ahead.
Start a timeshare there.
I'm sure it will be awesome.
No Israelis live there because it is a dump... and openly hostile.
There are a ton of Palestinians crammed into a very tight space, subject to blockade, and governed by a terrorist organization.
But go ahead.
Start a timeshare there.
I'm sure it will be awesome.
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Gee, could it be the Fact that HAMAS (a terrorist anti-jewish group) runs the Gaza Strip. You know the folks that fire hundreds if not thousands of rockets into Israel every year, plants IED's and conducts suicide bombing on Israelis every year. Just what would the life expectancy be for a Jew in the strip? Those that want to live peaceably in Israel do so, those that don't are moved out. Not killed, not put into concentration camps, moved out of the country. Study your history, the Middle East is screwed up because the Brits, French divided the area after the WWI with no regard to tribal/ethnic concern. Then they promised the Arabs and the Jews their own homelands for helping during WWII. 1947 Israel came into existence and almost immediately, every Arab Nation around them declared war on them. Palestinians can not trace themselves back to any of the ancient tribes of Palestine, but the Jews can trace their occupation to that time. If Israel could have secure borders, they would be happy, but how can you treat with anyone who-1. Says all Jews must die. 2. Does not recognize the nation of Israel. 3. Launches almost daily attacks against you. You figure it out and you could have a Nobel Peace prize.
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If they all came to the border and wanted into Israel they would be admitted?
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What about Christians. In the one honest election Gaza had the Christians went 85% for Hamas
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PO3 John Jeter
Hmmm....We're going back several years here and I'm not quite sure I understand the thrust of your question. Could you clarify just a little? I prefer to give respectful consideration to any question. That come from sticking my foot in my own mouth often enough to dislike the taste.......*grin*
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PO3 John Jeter
The Arab world told the Palestinians to get out of the way while they slaughtered the Jews, then they could go home again. History shows how that worked out. The Arab world had no intention of adopting that many refugees and certainly didn't have the resources to do so if they had been so inclined anyhow. So the Arab world ended up with all these angry displaced Palestinians who had no place to go. They were all looking at their brother Arabs and asking "Now what?" It was easier to expel them than to deal with them. Egypt was one of the fortunate countries where the numbers were small enough to be able to do just that.
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Sgt Wayne Wood
am i the only guy who remebers how Black September got it's name? something about the Palestinians trying to assassinate the Jordanian king and getting their collective asses kicked out of Jordan?
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I have seen similar posts about other locations and ethnicities in our own country.
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PO3 John Jeter
LOL Believe me, I'm not using the finger of purity here......Depending on the historical era you choose, we all have dirty hands. Some of the things our people did to the Cherokee people make the Nazis look like beginners..... The big problem we have in the middle east is that we are dealing with a culture that seems to be stuck in the dark ages. Brutality, savagery, vengeance all twisted into a vague notion of destructive honor....The problem is that very little will affect that type of culture except it's own methods. That means we will have to get just as nasty and barbaric as they in order to get our message across. I'm not sure I like the idea.....
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SCPO (Join to see)
The idea that "All they understand is force/brutality/savagery" is incredibly convenient. That's why the British, Spanish, French, Chinese, Japanese, Americans, etc... have used it when it suited their purposes. The Middle East is not one cultural area, nor is it even well defined. Is it synomous with Arab World? Then eliminate Turkey and Iran. Is it halfway from Britain to East Asia the old "Far East")? Do we mean the Islamic World? Then add Indonesia, Malaysia, and large parts of Africa? Even among Arabs there are enormous cultural variations, and many non-Arabs live in the Arab World. It is true that the only short-term solution may be savagery - but that simply leads to more long term problems.
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PO3 John Jeter
In some ways I agree with you. The diversity of peoples in the area makes it extremely difficult to come up with a single effective policy. It didn't help matters at all when the British arbitrarily created new political entities at partition. So in addition to the age old enmities between tribes, you now have political power struggles mixed in. I have an Israeli friend who one time told me "If a person is beating you with a stick you have two options. You can wait for him to take mercy on your battered bleeding carcass (hopefully before you die) or you can rise up and smack the bastard in the face hard enough to make him stop and reconsider."
I know that's a simplistic solution, but so far it's been pretty effective for Israel.
I know that's a simplistic solution, but so far it's been pretty effective for Israel.
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SSgt (Join to see)
I am pretty sure I had nothing to do with any of that anywhere. We didn't start the fire:".
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