Posted on Sep 11, 2015
Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment. What do you think?
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All-male ground combat teams outperformed their mixed-gender counterparts in nearly every capacity during a recent infantry integration test, Marine Corps officials revealed Thursday.
Data collected during a monthslong experiment showed Marine teams with female members performed at lower overall levels, completed tasks more slowly and fired weapons with less accuracy than their all-male counterparts. In addition, female Marines sustained significantly higher injury rates and demonstrated lower levels of physical performance capacity overall, officials said.
The troubling findings come as Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. Joseph Dunford prepares to make a crucial decision regarding the integration of female troops into closed combat roles. Faced with a Defense Department-wide mandate that will open all jobs to women by Jan. 1, he must decide whether to ask for specific exceptions to the mandate in order to preserve combat readiness. Officials said Dunford had met with Navy Secretary Ray Mabus about the decision but had yet to issue his recommendations.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/09/10/mixed-gender-teams-come-up-short-marines-infantry-experiment/71979146/
Long story but an interesting read. My take is two-fold. One, women simply don't have the experience that men do. That will (most likely) improve over time as women gain experience.
Two, women for the most part simply do not have the muscular strength and endurance that men do. That's basic physiology.
Data collected during a monthslong experiment showed Marine teams with female members performed at lower overall levels, completed tasks more slowly and fired weapons with less accuracy than their all-male counterparts. In addition, female Marines sustained significantly higher injury rates and demonstrated lower levels of physical performance capacity overall, officials said.
The troubling findings come as Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. Joseph Dunford prepares to make a crucial decision regarding the integration of female troops into closed combat roles. Faced with a Defense Department-wide mandate that will open all jobs to women by Jan. 1, he must decide whether to ask for specific exceptions to the mandate in order to preserve combat readiness. Officials said Dunford had met with Navy Secretary Ray Mabus about the decision but had yet to issue his recommendations.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/09/10/mixed-gender-teams-come-up-short-marines-infantry-experiment/71979146/
Long story but an interesting read. My take is two-fold. One, women simply don't have the experience that men do. That will (most likely) improve over time as women gain experience.
Two, women for the most part simply do not have the muscular strength and endurance that men do. That's basic physiology.
Women in the Military
Marine Corps
Infantry
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 78
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The military should offer women who want to be grunts testosterone and other steroids until they can meet the male standard, and surgery for the useless-in-combat fat deposits...If they can do it, give them the job, by all means. But everyone who hasn't watched too much TV where a 100 pound female whips a room full of big guys knows the damn answer, men are prepared by millennia of evolution (or created by God, if you go that way) to fight. Women are prepared to raise the next generation of people. I'm over 60 now, but up until my '50's, I met many men I didn't think I could beat hand-to hand, and not one woman. None. Not ever. Maybe some weightlifting karate woman might have surprised me the hard way, but that's just how I felt.
Why are we even discussing this for our military until we have female linebackers in the NFL and no separate sports whatever? Sports are not nearly as important as the military, are they?
Sports are money driven, best athletes and all that, while in the military anyone with sufficient rank can make us do stupid crap that would get a coach fired in a minute. For LOSING.
Why are we even discussing this for our military until we have female linebackers in the NFL and no separate sports whatever? Sports are not nearly as important as the military, are they?
Sports are money driven, best athletes and all that, while in the military anyone with sufficient rank can make us do stupid crap that would get a coach fired in a minute. For LOSING.
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Surprise, surprise, surprise!!! IF WOMEN ARE EQUAL, put together a platoon of them and put that platoon up against a platoon of men. Isn't that kosher??? Any doubts about those results? Someone with a big pair of Brass Ones best be asking that question about this whole asinine experiment. This specific staged "scenario" was a joke from the start.
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IF THE PC CROWD HAS THEIR WZy woman will be intergrated into male combat units decreasing the units effectiveness and probably get some people killed but the PC crowd don't give a rats ass about that
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Do women have to register with the selective service system when they turn 18? NO. Because they don't want to be in combat nor do they perform well in it. Mixing men and women in combat roles is just a bad idea all together. Send mixed gender units into combat for extended periods of time, and somebody is coming home pregnant guaranteed. You just can't have men and women serving together and not "mingle" at some point.
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This is hands down the best statement I have read on this issue, and it comes from Justin D. LeHew, the Sergeant Major of the Training and Education Command and highly decorated combat veteran.
"Ok, been silent long enough on this. I have been a part of this process from the beginning and I am just going to put it out there. The Secretary of the Navy is way off base on this and to say the things he is saying is is flat out counter to the interests of national security and is unfair to the women who participated in this study. We selected our best women for this test unit, selected our most mature female leaders as well. The men (me included) were the most progressive and open minded that you could get. The commander of this unit was a seasoned and successful infantryman. The XO of this unit was as good as they get, so good the USMC made her the CO of the Officer candidate school. I just selected the SgtMaj of the unit to head up our senior enlisted academy at Camp Lejeune, NC. No one went in to this with the mentality that we did not want this to succeed. No Marine, regardless of gender would do that. With our limited manpower we cannot afford to not train eveyone to the best of their abilities. This was as stacked as a unit could get with the best Marines to give it a 100 percent success rate as we possibly could. End result? The best women in The GCEITF as a group in regard to infantry operations were equal or below in most all cases to the lowest 5 percent of men as a group in this test study. They are slower on all accounts in almost every technical and tactical aspect and physically weaker in every aspect across the range of military operations. SECNAV has stated that he has made his mind up even before the release of these results and that the USMC test unit will not change his mind on anything. Listen up folks. Your senior leadership of this country does not want to see America overwhelmingly succeed on the battlefield, it wants to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to persue whatever they want regardless of the outcome on national security. The infantry is not Ranger School. That is just a school like any other school and is not a feeder specifically to the infantry. Anyone can go to that school that meets the prereqs, just like airborne school. Kudos to the two women who graduated. They are badasses in their own right. In regards to the infantry….there is no trophy for second place. You perform or die. Make no mistake. In this realm, you want your fastest, most fit, most physical and most lethal person you can possibly put on the battlefield to overwhelm the enemy’s ability to counter what you are throwing at them and in every test case, that person has turned out to be a man. There is nothing gender biased about this, it is what it is. You will never see a female Quarterback in the NFL, there will never be a female center on any NHL team and you will never see a female batting in the number 4 spot for the New York Yankees. It is what it is. As a country we preach equality. But to place these mandates on the military before this country has even considered making females register, just like males, for the selective service is in all aspects out of touch with reality. Equality and equal opportunity start before you raise your right hand and swear and oath to this country. Yes, we are an all volunteer force at the moment. Should this country however need to mobilize rapidly again to face the threats of the world like our grandfathers did, it will once again look to the military age males of this country to fill the ranks because last I checked, we did not require women to register for the selective service. Until that happens, we should not even be wasting our time even thinking about opening up the infantry to women."
Splash out. Semper Fi.
"Ok, been silent long enough on this. I have been a part of this process from the beginning and I am just going to put it out there. The Secretary of the Navy is way off base on this and to say the things he is saying is is flat out counter to the interests of national security and is unfair to the women who participated in this study. We selected our best women for this test unit, selected our most mature female leaders as well. The men (me included) were the most progressive and open minded that you could get. The commander of this unit was a seasoned and successful infantryman. The XO of this unit was as good as they get, so good the USMC made her the CO of the Officer candidate school. I just selected the SgtMaj of the unit to head up our senior enlisted academy at Camp Lejeune, NC. No one went in to this with the mentality that we did not want this to succeed. No Marine, regardless of gender would do that. With our limited manpower we cannot afford to not train eveyone to the best of their abilities. This was as stacked as a unit could get with the best Marines to give it a 100 percent success rate as we possibly could. End result? The best women in The GCEITF as a group in regard to infantry operations were equal or below in most all cases to the lowest 5 percent of men as a group in this test study. They are slower on all accounts in almost every technical and tactical aspect and physically weaker in every aspect across the range of military operations. SECNAV has stated that he has made his mind up even before the release of these results and that the USMC test unit will not change his mind on anything. Listen up folks. Your senior leadership of this country does not want to see America overwhelmingly succeed on the battlefield, it wants to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to persue whatever they want regardless of the outcome on national security. The infantry is not Ranger School. That is just a school like any other school and is not a feeder specifically to the infantry. Anyone can go to that school that meets the prereqs, just like airborne school. Kudos to the two women who graduated. They are badasses in their own right. In regards to the infantry….there is no trophy for second place. You perform or die. Make no mistake. In this realm, you want your fastest, most fit, most physical and most lethal person you can possibly put on the battlefield to overwhelm the enemy’s ability to counter what you are throwing at them and in every test case, that person has turned out to be a man. There is nothing gender biased about this, it is what it is. You will never see a female Quarterback in the NFL, there will never be a female center on any NHL team and you will never see a female batting in the number 4 spot for the New York Yankees. It is what it is. As a country we preach equality. But to place these mandates on the military before this country has even considered making females register, just like males, for the selective service is in all aspects out of touch with reality. Equality and equal opportunity start before you raise your right hand and swear and oath to this country. Yes, we are an all volunteer force at the moment. Should this country however need to mobilize rapidly again to face the threats of the world like our grandfathers did, it will once again look to the military age males of this country to fill the ranks because last I checked, we did not require women to register for the selective service. Until that happens, we should not even be wasting our time even thinking about opening up the infantry to women."
Splash out. Semper Fi.
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I am NOT SURPRIZED at this out come! JUST leave the Marines alone, and push your agenda some where else! There is NO PC in war!
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To me it isn't a matter of who can or who can't. It is ... “Will the addition of female troops make the USMC a more effective combat fighting unit?” Understand USMC training I know WM's are tested and proven tough, hard chargers. Moreover, I also feel confident that Marine Corps trainers pick the best of those hard chargers and took this assignment like ALL Marines take assignments, seriously with the focus of combat readiness constantly in the background as the reason for the training. Since these Marines came up short. It's time to stop trying to put a round peg in square hole! The argument for this mentality is the qualification of two females as Rangers. Why not Woman Marine Corps? Right now the Marine Corps has a different mission than the other services. In fact, qualification to train as a Marine is different than that of the other services. If service standards are to be consistent across the board, we don't need different services. We can change to a US defense force. Until then the other services can continue to qualify women for their idea of what it takes to be a combat troop. The Marine Corps will continue to have the same standard that forces the average male to the other services while attracting some of the best hard charging females our country makes.
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Cpl Sarah Mast
This is kind of my thought on the subject as well. An average male Marine would be at the peak of, say, the average Army unit. An average female Marine would blow the socks off of any other service's females. Our infantry is the fastest, hardest, and roughest of all the branches. I would stake money that females can do an outstanding job in Army infantry (given several years of adjustment to make everything run smoothly, just like black integration took). However, as much as it galls me to say it, the percentage of females who can not just MAKE it in the Marine infantry but be an ASSET to the squad is too tiny to be worth the trouble.
We solved this problem years ago with the FET teams- it took the hardest-charging women and gave them front line opportunity in groups of their female peers. They provided a unique and valuable asset to the mission, and there were no sexual problems between them in their all-female squads. I think there's just going to end up being a choice for the best girls: be average among the best as a POG (Marines), or be average among the average on the front lines (Army/Navy/AF).
We solved this problem years ago with the FET teams- it took the hardest-charging women and gave them front line opportunity in groups of their female peers. They provided a unique and valuable asset to the mission, and there were no sexual problems between them in their all-female squads. I think there's just going to end up being a choice for the best girls: be average among the best as a POG (Marines), or be average among the average on the front lines (Army/Navy/AF).
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Cpl Brad MarkW
Cpl Sarah Mast - "However, as much as it galls me to say it, the percentage of females who can not just MAKE it in the Marine infantry but be an ASSET to the squad is too tiny to be worth the trouble."
Thank you for having the guts and common sense to say that. You're a realist and I absolutely respect you for the courage to say that. It couldn't have been easy, I can imagine, but it's true. It's reality. Everything else is just avoiding the issue for the sake of being PC.
Thank you for having the guts and common sense to say that. You're a realist and I absolutely respect you for the courage to say that. It couldn't have been easy, I can imagine, but it's true. It's reality. Everything else is just avoiding the issue for the sake of being PC.
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It's like 140 lbs. MMA fighters thrown into 180 lbs. weight class. No bueno!
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My hat's off to the Army and the Jarheads. Rather than flat out say that women can't, they gave them a chance to make it. For the Army two did. For the Jarheads it's a mixed bag, and the results are inconclusive. I'd much rather hear someone tried and honestly failed than to hear some sexist BS that a female is inferior than her male counterpart for whatever reason the male can come up with. Thanks for trying Ladies. And honestly for the Jarheads, you didn't fail; you showed the tenacity that the Devil Dogs are known for. You ran to...not away.
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