Posted on Nov 24, 2013
More Important: Multiple Deployments or College Degree?
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As the transition from major combat operations/deployments to more time in garrison environments accelerates, what are your thoughts about the weights of multiple deployments and college degrees for promotion potential/continued service?
Garrison
Deployment
College
Education
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 42
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The main duty for the peacetime servicemember is the preparation for war. THis being said, the educated Soldier is also a more effective Soldier. THey are able to utilize the education recieved as a multiplier in the operational aspect of the battlefield. I believe that combat experiance and college education work together to make the most well rounded Soldier. So i guess my anser is yes.. to both.
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SGT (Join to see)
I just thought it was for emphasis CSM. I imagined it in a southern baptist preacher tent revival voice. AN-ser is YES!
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1SG (Join to see)
Well said Battle! At one point the NG was offering a guaranteed 2 yrs. of school before you deployed. I had Soldiers make sure they were enrolled into college when my unit got the order for Iraq. When I came home, they were all Cadets. What kind of a "Leader" can they really be. They bugged out of a Deployment(experience) just to get their degree. That meant my Privates were more experienced and proficient at their duties/MOS than the new Louies to be.
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<P>I feel that Deployments, while it has impact, is really not a fair item to look at. I know a number of people that, based on where they were stationed, their MOS/AFSC, and situational position for them, have NEVER been deployed. "NOT FAIR" many would say....especially those of us with 2 or more and others with none. But in the AF, I can say that deployment is a hit and miss item based on need and rotations AND where you are at. Army is one that most often deploys as a unit, so if a new arrival to the unit gets there while the unit is deployed or shortly after they return home, they may PCS prior to the next deployment rotation. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Education shows that the individual is doing what they can to promote themselves and prepare for their future. Again, some locations do not have enough down time to allow significant educational oppertunities for troops....so this also becomes a problem. I would weigh each member individually and make decissions on the situation that they are in.</P>
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<P>Education shows that the individual is doing what they can to promote themselves and prepare for their future. Again, some locations do not have enough down time to allow significant educational oppertunities for troops....so this also becomes a problem. I would weigh each member individually and make decissions on the situation that they are in.</P>
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Deployments. Our profession is Soldier. Peacetime or not: Deployment is our Superbowl; our Olympics. College education is important, but our profession isn't students. We can be both a student and a Soldier, but if you meet someone and they ask you what you do for a living, I'll bet you'll say you're a Soldier before you say you're a student.<br><br>edit: I noticed Corporal Fittizzi is in on this discussion. Feel free to replace "Soldier" with "Marine" wherever you see fit. :)
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SPC Dan Goforth
PFC Dydasco, we are indeed soldiers first, but we're coming to the point where actual combat deployments are winding down. Deployments are great, but I see a well rounded education being important to the development of soldiers. When deployments to actual combat are no longer there, we will need to replace that aspect with more training.
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SFC (Join to see)
PFC Dydasco,
I felt the same way as you when I entered the Army. It was actually the reason I joined. It took me 5.5 years to realize that it isn't the case in the military. Any NCOES you go to, you will be required to write a college level essay and as 1LT Brantley said, effective oral and written communication is paramount. You need to set yourself up for a life outside the military and having experience doesn't necessarily get you a job.
Personally, I would prefer a leader with combat experience but they need to be intelligent in other aspects as well. This is usually gained through some sort of higher education.
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SSG Andrew Dydasco
Thank you both SPC Goforth and SGT Galvin for the insight. I hope I didn't give the impression that I don't find college education important -- I absolutely do! I have some credits under my belt and am continuing to add to them; studying business.
My point I was trying to make is that in peacetime, we never know when the next conflict will arise, and we have to be ready at all times for such an occurrence. If our country hasn't been at war for, say, 6-10 years when a new war breaks out, wouldn't it make more sense for some of the people who were around for the last war to be leading the people who weren't? If civilian education is weighed more than deployments, does that mean it makes more sense for a Soldier with a degree and no deployment experience to lead another Soldier who was around during the last war who has no degree, or perhaps is working on one, or has a lesser degree? Having a degree is a great accomplishment, and every Soldier should take the great opportunity that is given to them to pursue one, but NOT having one doesn't make someone less intelligent or less competent. And I know the argument may be said that the same can be said in reverse: NOT deploying doesn't make the Soldier with the degree less tactically proficient, and does not make him/her less capable of leading into combat. But like I said in my original comment: At the end of the day, we're Soldiers. And as Soldiers, we have to be ready at all times. Having a deployment under your belt doesn't make you an expert, but I think it should weigh more than a degree.
I think they need to reciprocate: In times of war, to me, many many people have deployed, and thus, they aren't exactly special or unique. So I believe in times of war, civilian education should mean more, because if you can manage that and deploying, it should stand out. Whereas in times of peace, people who have deployed will start ETSing, retiring, getting chaptered... So, people with deployments will become more scarce, and thus, should hold more weight. It's supply and demand basically. Just my 2 cents. Sorry if this PFC sounds completely ridiculous right now! :D
My point I was trying to make is that in peacetime, we never know when the next conflict will arise, and we have to be ready at all times for such an occurrence. If our country hasn't been at war for, say, 6-10 years when a new war breaks out, wouldn't it make more sense for some of the people who were around for the last war to be leading the people who weren't? If civilian education is weighed more than deployments, does that mean it makes more sense for a Soldier with a degree and no deployment experience to lead another Soldier who was around during the last war who has no degree, or perhaps is working on one, or has a lesser degree? Having a degree is a great accomplishment, and every Soldier should take the great opportunity that is given to them to pursue one, but NOT having one doesn't make someone less intelligent or less competent. And I know the argument may be said that the same can be said in reverse: NOT deploying doesn't make the Soldier with the degree less tactically proficient, and does not make him/her less capable of leading into combat. But like I said in my original comment: At the end of the day, we're Soldiers. And as Soldiers, we have to be ready at all times. Having a deployment under your belt doesn't make you an expert, but I think it should weigh more than a degree.
I think they need to reciprocate: In times of war, to me, many many people have deployed, and thus, they aren't exactly special or unique. So I believe in times of war, civilian education should mean more, because if you can manage that and deploying, it should stand out. Whereas in times of peace, people who have deployed will start ETSing, retiring, getting chaptered... So, people with deployments will become more scarce, and thus, should hold more weight. It's supply and demand basically. Just my 2 cents. Sorry if this PFC sounds completely ridiculous right now! :D
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SFC (Join to see)
I understand where you are coming from and I think you may not be getting the words across exactly as you mean. There will always be that leader who has combat experience or was in a unit that conducted great field exercises and understands the full spectrum of operations. The college aspect will and should always be there because it shows that PROFESSIONAL Soldier concept the Army is gearing toward. This will not be the first or last time the Army is in the situation it is coming to. We have remained the World's force because of our ability to provide realistic training in a garrison environment.
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I would think that by this point in time, especially for the SR ranks, that those with multiple deployments who have "done the deed" that they have been trained for would be looked at in a more positive light for promotions. "Book smarts" are nice, but we are a profession of arms and I think the "street smarts" that have been honed and put to use would be more important for the future. But as it has always been, so it seems, there will be a see-sawing of the importance of education and/or practical experience.
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I think deployment history is an important aspect to evaluate the future potential of a leader because you can draw a mental picture of that leader and all the possible mental and physical aspects of excelling under stress and harsh conditions. I also believe that a college education is vital to measuring potential growth and peformance of a leader too. How do we determine what is more important? I had a senior rater who once told me "if you haven't deployed In the last 24-48 months, you better have some college and your PME better be caught up." If you have many deployments and college, that says a lot about you and the emphasis that you place in all aspects of your career.
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CPT (Join to see)
My feelings are that you cannot fully appreciate why decisions are made within a given environment until you have experience in such an environment yourself. That being said, I tell my SMs we learn new things everyday and should be life long learners. Even if they take classes a few at a time, they are striving to better themselves. Ultimately, a college degree carries more weight on the civilian side. However, I firmly believe that having a degree and a deployment is the best combination.
Very Respectfully,
1LT Krohn
Very Respectfully,
1LT Krohn
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Those who did deploy, and weren't "fobbits", didn't have time to earn degrees. Even the typical Criminal Justice or Homeland Security Associates degree from a degree mill that caters to the military (like AMU) can take 4-6 years. Making a degree a requirement for advancement to a certain rank gives an unfair advantage to those who never deployed or who sat on a FOB with 24/7 internet access. While those who deployed multiple times, and did their jobs , are shoved to the rear, punished for being good at doing their jobs in a combat environment. That doesn't mean that those with a degree don't have the potential to be good at combat, just that they haven't proven it yet. Multiple deployments more than makes up for a lack of civilian education. How many Soldiers do you know with a degree, yet with a complete and total lack of common sense? How many of your former leaders were college graduates who were complete idiots? A degree doesn't confer confidence or competence; surviving and thriving through multiple deployments does.
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MSG Quick,
I think they are both needed. But look at the SMA he has only one deployment and where is he sitting. So I don't think Deployments matter at that level. I would say get the Degree now while TA can help pay for and most units afford soldiers time to go to school.
Just my thoughts.
V/R
1SG Haro
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I think both are important and have their place in expediting some one's career toward success. I would rather work with, for, or lead a well rounded soldier over one that only has education but no experience or the other way around. Having deployment experience is obviously important and the merits for such experience go without saying. Having an education is also important as you move through the ranks because it will broaden you perspective, improve critical thinking/research skills, give you some subject matter expertise that is hard to gain through other channels, and it will almost always improve your oral and written communication which I feel is incredibly important in today's Army.
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I'll go for option C, all of the above.
During OIF-1 I took graduate courses at night. Eventual graduated.
When I served at the Embassy in Egypt during the Morsy revolution of 2013, I finished ILE (DL version) and started another graduate degree. It all comes down to sleep management and time management:)
During OIF-1 I took graduate courses at night. Eventual graduated.
When I served at the Embassy in Egypt during the Morsy revolution of 2013, I finished ILE (DL version) and started another graduate degree. It all comes down to sleep management and time management:)
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A short story you can take for what it's worth. In 1970 I came home as a Captain from VN and ended up being assigned as the Group Adjutant of a 16 squadron unit. Was former enlisted, had served as a pilot in a carrier based unit on a cruise prior to the VN tour, meritoriously augmented into the regular Corps (a big deal), had a chest full of medals including a Silver Star and had been one of the lead pilots in my VN unit. Was talking with a Major one day and he asked if I had a degree. I said no, but I thought my record would carry me. He looked at me and told me he wanted to see the enrollment papers for one of the local schools for a course by the next week. After about a year during which I had been taking courses, I got a letter from the CMC commending my service to date, but advising me that I was career limited unless I got my degree. Fortunately, the Major making me start classes had put me into the position where I got my degree prior to being in the zone of consideration for promotion to Major. Keep in mind that this the 70s when all our systems and procedures were a lot less sophisticated than they are now. Anyone can get shot at and demonstrate excellence in the field, but the guy who is senior to you probably demonstrated his mental capabilities and the current proof of those capabilities is a degree. May not be fair or right, but I think you will find it true.
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MAJ (Join to see)
"Back in the days" that was possible, Sir. But nowadays you will make it to first base (O-1) in some cases, and even to second (O-2), but you will not make CPT/O-3 without a bachelors degree. I only seen that on the medical field, a nurse colleague. The military don't have much tolerance for officers who don't complete their civilian or military education. A look at the biography of any Senior NCO will show also the need for college education. Thank God for the Service member Opportunity Colleges, it has made the whole thing easier.
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LtCol Robert Quinter
MAJ (Join to see) - My point is that even "back in the day" a senior officer had the foresight to ensure that I was working toward a college degree. We owe the same to our people today.
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