Posted on Jun 6, 2014
MSG stand at Parade Rest for 1SG or SGM for a CSM
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I am finding a lot of contention with the saluting post. I will now put on the level of enlisted soldiers now.
If you are in a company that has a MSG in it, like an HHC, would the MSG stand at parade rest for the 1SG. The 1SG is the senior most soldier in the company. Would this be the case for a OPS SGM and the BN CSM.
I know they are all the same pay grade but the duty position makes one the Senior and one the subordinate. If you think this is still not clear. Would a BN CSM stand at Parade Rest for a BDE CSM.
Would a SPC and a CPL be the same as they are in the same pay grade?
As with LTs they see themselves as peers but one is still senior to the other.
FM 7-21.13 para 4-16
• When speaking to or being addressed a noncommissioned officer of superior rank, stand at parade rest until ordered otherwise.
If you are in a company that has a MSG in it, like an HHC, would the MSG stand at parade rest for the 1SG. The 1SG is the senior most soldier in the company. Would this be the case for a OPS SGM and the BN CSM.
I know they are all the same pay grade but the duty position makes one the Senior and one the subordinate. If you think this is still not clear. Would a BN CSM stand at Parade Rest for a BDE CSM.
Would a SPC and a CPL be the same as they are in the same pay grade?
As with LTs they see themselves as peers but one is still senior to the other.
FM 7-21.13 para 4-16
• When speaking to or being addressed a noncommissioned officer of superior rank, stand at parade rest until ordered otherwise.
Customs and Courtesies
NCOs
Peers
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 49
Suspended Profile
If in the direct chain of command, they technically should. The 1SG and CSM positions are command positions and outweigh SGM/MSG positions by duty.
1SG Michael Blount
CPT Nick Obradovich - Sir, I believe the MSG has administrative authority, but not command. It's similar to the SGM/CSM distinction in that respect.
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Stand at parade rest. If you think you're too good to stand at parade rest for one of you're peers, then you have respect issues.
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Sir,
They are different ranks, but unlike Lieutenants one is not demoted if they change jobs from 1SG or CSM to Ops or other staff job, the diamond stays with the company. Same with the wreath.
Question back for you Sir...if one of my soldiers has a pay problem and I am their section NCO on a staff in a GO command, who is the next link in the NCO support channel, my HHC's 1SG or the GO's CSM?
They are different ranks, but unlike Lieutenants one is not demoted if they change jobs from 1SG or CSM to Ops or other staff job, the diamond stays with the company. Same with the wreath.
Question back for you Sir...if one of my soldiers has a pay problem and I am their section NCO on a staff in a GO command, who is the next link in the NCO support channel, my HHC's 1SG or the GO's CSM?
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CSM Christopher St. Cyr
Sir, I missed your reply. I agree with your position. I once found one of my NCOs leaving the 1SG's office and asked him what he was there for. It was pay problem he failed to bring to my attention. So we discussed the support channel and keeping the next senior NCO in his channel informed (me) before bringing problems to the 1SG. For the people in my section, I serve as their PSG of our staff section when viewed as a Platoon of our Company. Hum...maybe I, as the PSG, should stand at parade rest for my 1SG! ;) Good HHC 1SGs are some of the best NCOs in the Army.
Think about it. Who are the people most likely to be out of compliance with standard Soldier requirements in a Headquarters Company? The problem children are usually all the high ranking people who think they have more important things to do than take an APFT or go to a rifle range. All out rank him by leaps and bounds, but effective HHC 1SGs some how manage to round up the stray sheep and keep them with the rest of the flock. HHC 1SGs have always amazed me.
Think about it. Who are the people most likely to be out of compliance with standard Soldier requirements in a Headquarters Company? The problem children are usually all the high ranking people who think they have more important things to do than take an APFT or go to a rifle range. All out rank him by leaps and bounds, but effective HHC 1SGs some how manage to round up the stray sheep and keep them with the rest of the flock. HHC 1SGs have always amazed me.
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A good one sir would be as a SFC would you stand at parade rest for a SFC in a 1SG position not in your company/troop?
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SFC (Join to see)
That's a good one.. We have a 1SG in the BN CSM slot and I call him Sergeant Major. I think it all boils down to respect for the rank and duty position they hold.
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A couple of issues I have with this entry into the FM:
1. if you stand at parade rest, you are prevented from speaking which makes you ineffective for interacting with your "superior"
2. In order to speak you would have to go to "at ease", which you would not be able to since you are at Parade Rest. So in effect, you would have to stand at Parade Rest, then when speaking, go to At Ease, then back to Parade Rest.
3. The intention of Parade Rest is pretty simple: The command should be used only for Ceremony, not actual day to day activities and interactions.
4. If you are taking fire and address your Rifleman, are you expecting him to stop what he is doing and go to Parade Rest?
5. So if you get stopped by an MP that has the rank of PV2, you expect him to stand at parade rest, if that is the case he wouldn't be able to do his job.
6. You can't have it both ways.
Another issue I have is what I want to call Garrison Rangers, and we all know who they are.
These are the "NCOs" that walk up to troops and initiate a conversations and say shit such as "you need to get at Parade Rest when I am talking to you."
So in effect, you are telling them that you could care less about what they are doing and that you are more important.
This is bad leadership. If expecting soldiers to come to parade rest is that important to you, then you need to seriously conduct not only a personal assessment, but also you need to check to make sure that you are in the right kind of profession.
Do all leaders expect soldiers to stand at Parade Rest? Sure, why not, it is something that we are all taught in Basic and AIT. Do we all have a natural tendency to question whether we should stand at parade rest?. Sure because it was something that was taught to us in basic and AIT and that it is a symbol of respect. But the moment you as a leader focus on your soldiers standing at parade rest instead of putting lead down range, that, to me, means that it is time for you to go.
Honestly, I could care less if a soldier stood at parade rest, I car more about him covering my 6 and doing his god damn job and doing it right.
1. if you stand at parade rest, you are prevented from speaking which makes you ineffective for interacting with your "superior"
2. In order to speak you would have to go to "at ease", which you would not be able to since you are at Parade Rest. So in effect, you would have to stand at Parade Rest, then when speaking, go to At Ease, then back to Parade Rest.
3. The intention of Parade Rest is pretty simple: The command should be used only for Ceremony, not actual day to day activities and interactions.
4. If you are taking fire and address your Rifleman, are you expecting him to stop what he is doing and go to Parade Rest?
5. So if you get stopped by an MP that has the rank of PV2, you expect him to stand at parade rest, if that is the case he wouldn't be able to do his job.
6. You can't have it both ways.
Another issue I have is what I want to call Garrison Rangers, and we all know who they are.
These are the "NCOs" that walk up to troops and initiate a conversations and say shit such as "you need to get at Parade Rest when I am talking to you."
So in effect, you are telling them that you could care less about what they are doing and that you are more important.
This is bad leadership. If expecting soldiers to come to parade rest is that important to you, then you need to seriously conduct not only a personal assessment, but also you need to check to make sure that you are in the right kind of profession.
Do all leaders expect soldiers to stand at Parade Rest? Sure, why not, it is something that we are all taught in Basic and AIT. Do we all have a natural tendency to question whether we should stand at parade rest?. Sure because it was something that was taught to us in basic and AIT and that it is a symbol of respect. But the moment you as a leader focus on your soldiers standing at parade rest instead of putting lead down range, that, to me, means that it is time for you to go.
Honestly, I could care less if a soldier stood at parade rest, I car more about him covering my 6 and doing his god damn job and doing it right.
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MSG Martin C.
SGT Butler you are correct about parade rest being the modify position of attention but you need to read the reg again, because it states that parade rest will be utilized to address NCOs and When NCOs address NCOs of superior rank therefore that cancels being silent. Same rule applies to position attention for addressing officers. You are putting it in the context of a formation or ceremony addressing NCOs and Officers is conducted at parade rest and attention respectively apples and oranges. If you are willing to volunteer for DS duty you could master this little rules.....
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SGT (Join to see)
Don't get me wrong SFC Martin Cardenas, if you ask anyone I have ever served with, they will tell you that I am one of the most respectful people they had ever met, especially when it comes to customs and courtesies. My comments were directed toward the mentality of those that would find fault with written procedures versus practical application. I have worked many times with those that were senior and subordinate in rank to myself. After a while, as you begin to see the true character of certain individuals, especially those that exuberate respectful attitudes, the need for standing at Parade Rest goes out the window, as the success of the mission and the focus on details becomes more prevalent. I firmly believe that there is a time and place for everything when it comes to military courtesy. I wouldn't say I is comparing apples to oranges, as that is an unsupported attempt to end the debate, and a debate is what this is. I have no issue with becoming a Drill Sergeant. That path is not currently factored in my career, but if the Army wanted me to do it, I would make the best of it and be the best I could be. But, I will point out that from what I personally see when I am around soldiers is that Customs Courtesies, and Traditions are not emphasized enough once soldiers leave Basic and AIT, especially for the NCO Corps. Other than the Army promotion boards to soldiers and NCOs "study" (ie., memorize a few lines of text) and then after the board they forget it all. Too bad the FM wasn't required reading that was tested in some way. I will offer you the last comment.
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If you are a SGT do you stand at parade rest (or at ease) for another SGT? What if you were a SSG would you stand at parade rest for another SSG? Same thing if you were a SFC?
With that being said I have seen more then one BN CSM stand at parade rest for a more senior CSM, usually its a very high CSM like DIV CSM or SMA. Of course its always done in the presence of the rest of the unit, and in a very public forum.
With that being said I have seen more then one BN CSM stand at parade rest for a more senior CSM, usually its a very high CSM like DIV CSM or SMA. Of course its always done in the presence of the rest of the unit, and in a very public forum.
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CPT (Join to see)
By that would a SPC stand at Parade Rest for a CPL. What about a WO1 for a O1? It can't be that simple.
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1SG Chris Brown
Absolutely a SPC would stand at parade rest for a CPL. The CPL is a noncommissioned officer; the SPC must show that respect. And a Warrant Officer should technically stand at attention for a LT until told to relax or stand at ease. In practice, this doesn't happen much; I'm not going to go to attention myself before I address an LT, I can promise you that.
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CPT (Join to see)
LOL. I was in the 525th MI back in the day. I strive to promote an environment that is conducive to critical thinking that is not within the realm of our norms. We have developed a culture of quick reaction and thoughtless acts with little analyze of what is going to. You lucky you haven't had a coffee with me. I am a big information junkie. I can talk and listen for hours. Which is another reason why I enjoy RP so much.
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There is the saying, respect the rank and not the man. But even with that being said, its all about the professional relationship between those who were that rank. They understands and the responsibilities they are charged with. MSG/1SG & SGM/CSM are the same rank. It is a lateral promotion. One just carries more responsibily with the position [1SG & CSM]. I had a MSG assume 1SG duties while the 1SG was actually deployed and a 1SG assume CSM duties while the CSM was deployed. The only time I see a MSG or SGM go to parade rest is during formation and during the CSM pow wow before the battalion formation. Why? To show respect to the senior enlisted soldier of the battalion.
BN CSMs will go to parade rest for the BDE CSM because he [BDE CSM] is the Senior Enlisted soldier of the BDE. I saw this all the time downrange with my BN CSMs going to parade rest for my BDE CSM. It was never about the power and subordinate issue. It just a matter of respect and perception you needed to show to our lower enlisted soldiers. The same way showed when I saw my BDE CSM go to parade rest for the DIV CSM. They maybe all peers but you still show your respect to the Senior Enlisted soldier of the unit.
BN CSMs will go to parade rest for the BDE CSM because he [BDE CSM] is the Senior Enlisted soldier of the BDE. I saw this all the time downrange with my BN CSMs going to parade rest for my BDE CSM. It was never about the power and subordinate issue. It just a matter of respect and perception you needed to show to our lower enlisted soldiers. The same way showed when I saw my BDE CSM go to parade rest for the DIV CSM. They maybe all peers but you still show your respect to the Senior Enlisted soldier of the unit.
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1SG (Join to see)
SGT Eashman, MSG/1SG and SGM/CSM are not the same rank, only the same pay grade. Each comes with different responsibilities inherent in their titles and roles in a unit.
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For a 1SG, I would say no because they are the same pay grade. Just in differnt positions. My former 1SG is now a MSG here in a S3 shop with his unit.
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CPT Jacob Swartout
CPL is a junior NCO in the making though not a NCO yet, he is on his way to eventually become one. I have seen SPCs stand at parade rest for them. Doesn't always happen but it did in my last unit. May depend on how much it is enforced at separate units in the Army.
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CPT Jacob Swartout
Rgr that, I have been in units where people don't agree with what a CPL should be. I was a CPL for 33 days and was told I was an NCO by some and that I was almost a NCO by others. Some will argue and you can't change their minds for most. We had a similar discussion about this when I was in the 101st ABN DIV about the two ranks.
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MSG(P) Michael Warrick
For a 1SG, I would say no too, because they are the same pay grade. Just in different positions. One is a staff role and the other is a command role!
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I usually see MSGs not at parade rest and just calling them 1SG or top. The same goes for SGM to CSM.
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SSG Christopher Freeman
If I was a 1SG, I wouldn't have a MSG stand at parade rest for me. If they came up to me and went to parade rest, I would tell them to relax. The only thing I would ask is that in open settings, call me 1SG.
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SSG Christopher Freeman
I would imagine that LTs would only salute an LT they don't know just to play it safe
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CPT (Join to see)
True. I am prior service so I am so used to just saluting. I don't think that a LT would care either way but it shows respect for that other officer and set the example for other to follow.
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