Posted on Aug 16, 2017
My son is Army NG & in AIT. He failed the run by 5 sec. An NCO said he was going to recommend that he be chaptered. Can this be prevented?
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Ma'am, as a current AIT XO, I will say that no commander worth his/her salt would want to chapter a Soldier who is only failing the run by five seconds. If the Soldier fails two record APFTs, chapter paperwork is initiated. However, we continue to work with the Soldier to pass the APFT. For example, my company conducts remedial PT six days per week. If the Soldier passes the APFT, the flag is lifted and the chapter process completely eliminated. The AIT company commander has the discretion to keep a Soldier seven days after the scheduled graduation to provide the Soldier an additional opportunity to pass the APFT, and the battalion commander can grant up to 2 weeks post graduation to pass the APFT. If the Soldier fails to pass after that time frame, the Soldier could potentially be a "restart." (Please reference TRADOC 350-6, Paragraph 5-22 for further information.) Additionally, the National Guard and Reserves are generally hurting for personnel, so the Guard/Reserve Liaisons will fight for their Soldiers to graduate if at all possible. One final caveat would be that patterns of misconduct (e.g., disrespect towards NCOs, failure to report to formation, etc.) in conjunction with less-than-stellar PT abilities may be the rationale for a zealous chapter attempt.
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SGM Erik Marquez
Becky Furniss - Ok so there is time for a follow up APFT, and its HIGHLY likely he will be given one unless there is some negative attitude on his part (I do NOT read that at all from your post, just mentioned it, as if the leadership was looking for a way to rid them selfs of a problem SM, this would be an easy way to do it)
So if he shows improvement in the daily APFT sessions, if he shows the will and desire to to improve, and there is no negative issues in the backgound, I have never met the training CofC that would not allow the SM to continue. And its as simple as this..If the CofC is doing the job well, they are looking for every chance to help an SM achieve the goal of graduation.
If the CofC is lazy and doing the lest work possible to get by...its still less work for them to let the SM stay and try to pass the APFT and graduate... I don't wish that type of C of C on any SM, but just saying it does happen, and in this case works to your sons advantage.
All that said.... When i was a DS at Fort Jackson, I had a few "tough guy" problem children over my three years...Some decided they want ed to stay, a few did not.... But I will always remember the couple that straightened up the fasted, who had some of the worst attitude.
One was a local SC born and raised young man that was sure he was tougher then all and had to do only what he wanted, when he wanted it.
I called his home of record, and spoke to his mother, telling her her son was not doing well, and likely wold be involuntarily separated with a general discharge and a buss ticket home... She was very polite and understanding, asked if she might meet with her son the coming Sunday for a chat to see if she could help him see the way......lol That Sunday she arrived, asked for a privet place she and her son could talk..... The gist of the conversation which pretty much the entire company heard though closed doors was.. You disrespectful little turd, we brought you up better than this, you quit on the Army do not come home, thats it, your on your own, do not call, come by or talk to your brothers or sisters. And if your DS calls me again about you mouthing off or disrespecting him or others I will come down here and slap the stupid out of you...or words to that effect.
I wont say he was the honor graduate that cycle, but i will say he did very well and was an example for others to follow by the time he graduated.
The other one, mom and dad visited... Three went in, not a sound was heard, two came out of the day room, Mom and dad said thanks for the time, you wont have any more problems out of him. They left and a few min later the young man emerged, apologized to me and other drills for his actions and attitude said " I wont tell you I'll do better, but I will show you"
He and I still speak on occasion..
So if he shows improvement in the daily APFT sessions, if he shows the will and desire to to improve, and there is no negative issues in the backgound, I have never met the training CofC that would not allow the SM to continue. And its as simple as this..If the CofC is doing the job well, they are looking for every chance to help an SM achieve the goal of graduation.
If the CofC is lazy and doing the lest work possible to get by...its still less work for them to let the SM stay and try to pass the APFT and graduate... I don't wish that type of C of C on any SM, but just saying it does happen, and in this case works to your sons advantage.
All that said.... When i was a DS at Fort Jackson, I had a few "tough guy" problem children over my three years...Some decided they want ed to stay, a few did not.... But I will always remember the couple that straightened up the fasted, who had some of the worst attitude.
One was a local SC born and raised young man that was sure he was tougher then all and had to do only what he wanted, when he wanted it.
I called his home of record, and spoke to his mother, telling her her son was not doing well, and likely wold be involuntarily separated with a general discharge and a buss ticket home... She was very polite and understanding, asked if she might meet with her son the coming Sunday for a chat to see if she could help him see the way......lol That Sunday she arrived, asked for a privet place she and her son could talk..... The gist of the conversation which pretty much the entire company heard though closed doors was.. You disrespectful little turd, we brought you up better than this, you quit on the Army do not come home, thats it, your on your own, do not call, come by or talk to your brothers or sisters. And if your DS calls me again about you mouthing off or disrespecting him or others I will come down here and slap the stupid out of you...or words to that effect.
I wont say he was the honor graduate that cycle, but i will say he did very well and was an example for others to follow by the time he graduated.
The other one, mom and dad visited... Three went in, not a sound was heard, two came out of the day room, Mom and dad said thanks for the time, you wont have any more problems out of him. They left and a few min later the young man emerged, apologized to me and other drills for his actions and attitude said " I wont tell you I'll do better, but I will show you"
He and I still speak on occasion..
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Becky Furniss
SGM Erik Marquez - He finally got to talk to his Commander this morning. She is going to give him another chance at the APFT and she also sent him to medical to get checked out for the pain he has had in both legs since this last APFT.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SGM Erik Marquez - Well I guess he did
"Becky Furniss 1 mo
HE DID IT !!! And today of all days! 9/11/17 is also the graduation date for his AIT class. Maxed out his sit ups, 67 push ups, 14 minutes flat on the run !"
Tell congrats and DONT QUIT WORKING... Passing is not the end, its the beginning
"Becky Furniss 1 mo
HE DID IT !!! And today of all days! 9/11/17 is also the graduation date for his AIT class. Maxed out his sit ups, 67 push ups, 14 minutes flat on the run !"
Tell congrats and DONT QUIT WORKING... Passing is not the end, its the beginning
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My youngest Son was chaptered out of Basic/OSUT for PT failure, it can happen. The standards there are lower than at their assignment and they will not bend the standard even if it was 1 second. If they proceed with the chapter and he wasn't already recycled then he can attempt to join again at a minimum 6 months later with a waiver. I would say a year later at the earliest because he will have to pass a PT test for the recruiters at the AD standard. This is all depending on if the recruiters want to do the work, is your son worth all that extra effort when they have others that can make the runs etc this will also depend upon if ANY waivers are available. Your son needs to really become a PT ace or he will only run into issues should he make it into a unit. He is not alone from what I am hearing this is happening across the board will many future Soldiers. My Son now is what I call a PT Nazi and he runs like the wind, does 65 Pushups and 70 sit-ups, he is killing me on weekends. Good luck to your son.
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Becky Furniss
He has not been recycled. I'm not sure if that is an available option. His understanding was that it was only an option for Active Army not Army NG. He said it has something to do with state payroll & government payroll. And his numbers on the test yesterday were 57 push up and 68 sit up and failed the run by 5 seconds. And he has not even been counseled on it, yet. He has not talked to anyone ( NG Liaison, Platoon Sgt. or anyone else). At this point we don't know if it was just a motivational thing on the NCO's part or if it's actually going to happen and he doesn't want to take any chances. I think he plans to speak to a "classmate" about it. I don't think it's a good idea but I could be wrong too. This AIT "classmate" is not a new soldier, he is actually one of my son's future NCO's. Transition training or something. Sorry , I don't remember the correct term. This is why I'm here though, my son asked me to try to find out if he has ANY options at all. Recycle, change his MOS, anything. He would take any option right now that did not involve being sent home. And good luck to your son also. Sounds like he going to do great next time.
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1SG Dennis Hicks
Ma'am I am not a recruiter and any info outside of what my son dealt with would be outdated. These would be questions for a NG recruiter who is more familiar with recent regulations. I am fairly sure changing MOS would not be an option since passing the APFT to standard is the same for all MOS's. Worst case scenario he is discharged and makes an attempt to re-enter down the line when he can pass the APFT with ease. My son does PT with his recruiter and other future Soldiers and doesn't it with me on weekends. He is killing me :) and I was a pretty fit in my day. My best advice for your son is if they offer a recycle to take it. Never quit and train up to the very end. As I said this is becoming more and more common and recruiters have been talking about it for awhile. Good luck again.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - Once you graduate basic training and move into AIT/OSUT you must score 60 points in each APFT event.
"b. AIT and OSUT (Phase IV-V). Complete the following requirements:
(2) Pass APFT with a minimum of 60 points in each event. "
http://www.tradoc.army.mil/tpubs/regs/tr350-6.pdf
"b. AIT and OSUT (Phase IV-V). Complete the following requirements:
(2) Pass APFT with a minimum of 60 points in each event. "
http://www.tradoc.army.mil/tpubs/regs/tr350-6.pdf
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If it's two consecutive, then they must initiate the chapter, however; I've seen it plenty of times when I was in Korea, that they started the chapter, and within the time it took them to push it up, the soldier completed like 2-3 APFT's, and passed so they stopped the chapter process. It depends on your command if they want to take the speedy route, or not. Best of luck.
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Yes it can. He only needs to pass the run. It shouldn't be too hard to shave off five seconds. There is a reason why we have standards. When he will get to his unit it will only get harder.
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Becky Furniss
CPT (Join to see) - While I agree with you completely that this is on him, I also have a problem with the following..... I'm sure your heard the saying about putting the fear of God into someone, well where he is they have done a great job of instilling a HUGE fear of going to medical. I don't know if this is done intentionally or not The general consensus now is unless you either want to go home, your dying or you have a broken bone then you don't go to medical. He does not want to be sent home and refuses to go. In his APFT in Basic Training he had no prob. with the run. But since then ........well lets just say he has seen to many sent home that went to medical so he said there is no way in **** he is going until he passes this test. And yes, while we both know that going to medical is his choice, he see's it differently. That he just needs to fight through it and push harder OR go to medical which to him means to give up and be sent home.
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Becky Furniss
Does it make any difference that it was not his Platoon Sgt. that told him this ( She has not talked to him about this) or that, as of last night, he has not been counseled on this matter ?
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CPT (Join to see)
Becky Furniss - This should not be an issue. It's only five seconds. He should be able to train up and do that.
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Becky Furniss
CPT (Join to see) - I hope your right. Not sure if you saw my comment earlier about him being afraid to go to medical but he is being sent there in the morning. I just got off the phone with him and one of his Sergeants finally picked up on the fact that there is something wrong with him and told him he had to goto medical. Now he's even more upset. This has been his lifelong dream and now he feels like it is going down the toilet.
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Becky Furniss Ma'am,
THANK YOU for addressing this issue here instead of calling his chain of command. Those types of calls almost always end bad for the Recruit/ young Soldier. Calling his chain of command would equate to an embarrassing situation for all involved. It would be like your mother calling your boss because you complained that your boss told you to improve on coming into work on time or you might be fired. Don't take that as me saying that you should never call his chain of command. You deserve information about your Soldier. This situation is better handled as you are doing it though.
The short answer is that the NCO in question is trying to motivate your son. Yes, your son could get kicked out for a PT failure. There is a regulation that provides for this type of chapter/ discharge. The most likely outcome is for your son to work harder, meet standards, and move on with nothing broken but his ego.
THANK YOU for addressing this issue here instead of calling his chain of command. Those types of calls almost always end bad for the Recruit/ young Soldier. Calling his chain of command would equate to an embarrassing situation for all involved. It would be like your mother calling your boss because you complained that your boss told you to improve on coming into work on time or you might be fired. Don't take that as me saying that you should never call his chain of command. You deserve information about your Soldier. This situation is better handled as you are doing it though.
The short answer is that the NCO in question is trying to motivate your son. Yes, your son could get kicked out for a PT failure. There is a regulation that provides for this type of chapter/ discharge. The most likely outcome is for your son to work harder, meet standards, and move on with nothing broken but his ego.
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Becky Furniss
Thank you. I truly appreciate that. Although we have a lot of military in our family, I am a 1st timer as far as dealing with it directly. I belong to a great support group for the base my son is on and they cover things that we should not do very well, such as NOT calling their command and NOT asking for calls/photos on the FB pages. I am one of those parents that actually listened. My son is also not a minor, he is 21 so I am actually here because he asked me to see if I could get some incite on his situation for him. I told him I thought that he should speak to his platoon Sgt. or the ARNG Liaison but he asked me to do this first.
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Becky Furniss
HE DID IT !!! And today of all days! 9/11/17 is also the graduation date for his AIT class. Maxed out his sit ups, 67 push ups, 14 minutes flat on the run !
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Technically they could start the paperwork but more than likely it's a scare tactic, especially if it's just AIT. At my unit anytime someone fails 2 APFTs the CO will sit them down and tell them that they are going to be chaptered out and sure enough that causes them suddenly get very motivated about PT and they pass. I wouldn't worry about it.
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SFC Jim Ruether
In our unit they had to pass the APFT to complete the AIT Course. Once they were at their home station they were immediately assigned to a remedial APFT training platoon and given additional training until they could pass at their home station. No one wanted to be in that platoon and it was amazing how hard they worked to pass their APFT.
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1SG(P) (Join to see)
Currently as a Recruiter, we have seen a few of the Recruits that we enlist come back because of PT Failure. Like someone stated before, the standards are lower and they have several chances to pass it, if they dont get it then they will be sent home.
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I smell an injury that he is trying to power through.
Did your son give any indication that this was the case, Becky Furniss ?
A significant injury would be reason for a chapter as well, and makes more sense than just throwing him in remedial PT until he reduces his run time by 5 seconds.
Did your son give any indication that this was the case, Becky Furniss ?
A significant injury would be reason for a chapter as well, and makes more sense than just throwing him in remedial PT until he reduces his run time by 5 seconds.
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Becky Furniss
1SG (Join to see) - I just hung up with him. I only got a few minutes to talk to him but I did find out the Dr. put him on profile for 5 days but is concerned. I'm not sure but I think he had to go back at some point and talk to the Dr again. I couldn't get more because he had to report for PT although I'm confused as to why since he is on profile.
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1SG (Join to see)
Becky Furniss - he will continue to do PT, just with restrictions on what he can do to avoid aggravating any injury. It could be that he had an overuse injury and bounce back given some rest. Or it may be a bigger deal.
Either way, rest assured his doctor will have seen it before.
Everyone's goal is to get him successfully through the train and back to his unit.
Either way, rest assured his doctor will have seen it before.
Everyone's goal is to get him successfully through the train and back to his unit.
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SSG Mark Franzen
I WOULD SAY LET ME TRY AGAIN ON ANOTHER DAY AND PROVE TO HIM THAT YOU CAN PASS THE PT TEST.
SSG MARK FRANZEN
USA COLD WAR VET
SSG MARK FRANZEN
USA COLD WAR VET
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SSG Mark Franzen
Yes there is something wrong there are they going to allow him to do a retake it?
maybe do some remedial PT and see if he can do it again. SSG MARK FRANZEN
USA COLD WAR VET
maybe do some remedial PT and see if he can do it again. SSG MARK FRANZEN
USA COLD WAR VET
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The straight answer is YES.
Will he be separated on a Entry Level Separation(ELS,)? That depends.....on a lot.
NG brings a whole extra level to it, because its $$$ and time.
Another consideration, if they keep him as a hold over, insert him into another training company 3,9, 20 weeks back in the training time line, and he fails the APFT again...will he still be eligible for an ELS which is only an options for those in service 180 days or less. It would be better that he is separated with an ELS then other options.
Finally, militarily service is not for everyone . The physical fitness standards are set fairly low..even lower for those in AIT. If your son is struggling to pass those low standards he really is set up for failure for his future in the NG even if he passes now.......UNLESS the failure is out of character. If he was a fit young man in HS, track, football, baseball, Motocross racer, soccer player whet ever, and this failure is due to a injury, illness ect..... then his "getting by" now is not a big deal ...
If he can look inward and say "that was not me, I've always been faster, stronger than that, what happened?" can find an answer he can address in a week or two, he could contact his unit at home, plead his case to stay, speak with the training chain of command, plead his case to them to stay..and if convincing, likely will stay.
If either chain of command do not see the same potential in the near term for him to pass as your son does, its likely he will be separated.
Will he be separated on a Entry Level Separation(ELS,)? That depends.....on a lot.
NG brings a whole extra level to it, because its $$$ and time.
Another consideration, if they keep him as a hold over, insert him into another training company 3,9, 20 weeks back in the training time line, and he fails the APFT again...will he still be eligible for an ELS which is only an options for those in service 180 days or less. It would be better that he is separated with an ELS then other options.
Finally, militarily service is not for everyone . The physical fitness standards are set fairly low..even lower for those in AIT. If your son is struggling to pass those low standards he really is set up for failure for his future in the NG even if he passes now.......UNLESS the failure is out of character. If he was a fit young man in HS, track, football, baseball, Motocross racer, soccer player whet ever, and this failure is due to a injury, illness ect..... then his "getting by" now is not a big deal ...
If he can look inward and say "that was not me, I've always been faster, stronger than that, what happened?" can find an answer he can address in a week or two, he could contact his unit at home, plead his case to stay, speak with the training chain of command, plead his case to them to stay..and if convincing, likely will stay.
If either chain of command do not see the same potential in the near term for him to pass as your son does, its likely he will be separated.
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