Posted on Apr 23, 2015
NCO getting in trouble because he made an EO complaint! What can be done?
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The scenario I am about to describe is a very common tactic taken by leadership to help keep issues or grievances at the “lowest level”. However, it has junior soldiers and NCOs working in non-existent MTOE slots or not in a job the correlates with their MOS at all.
Currently, my peer that is battling this very situation and I’m seeking advice on how they should handle it. They spoke up about a situation to their First Sergeant and Commander regarding a blatant EO situation with their new platoon sergeant. My Battle Buddy chose not to report at the time trying to forge a working relationship with the SFC, and did talk to them about the situation. The working relationship was very strained afterwards, especially because the platoon sergeant was rarely at work causing this junior leader to pull up the slack without complaint.
Where the situation hit a pinnacle point was when the new platoon sergeant degraded them in front of the platoon’s subordinates openly. The NCO brought everything to the attention of their First Sergeant and Commander using the open door policy. The junior NCO owned their mistake and understood that they may face a summarized Art15 for potential disrespect contingent on the findings. The platoon sergeant never showed back up for the Commander to make a decision, nor did he ever counsel the NCO. No ramification or corrective action was taken, however; the junior NCO has now been bounced around multiple job positions that have nothing to do with their MOS. While working for their First Sergeant, the Commander tried to shift the blame of his mistake onto my peer while they were on emergency leave and had nothing to do with either incident. Once they returned from emergency leave the NCO was transferred again.
This NCO was highly motivated, highly motivated at their job and considering going indefinite. They now want to submit a 4187 for early separation and simply get out of the military all together. To make matters worse, they reached out to their First Sergeant and were told to “ride it out”. I understand this is a public forum so many of the details have been left out, but I am at a loss as to what to recommend. Please help.
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Currently, my peer that is battling this very situation and I’m seeking advice on how they should handle it. They spoke up about a situation to their First Sergeant and Commander regarding a blatant EO situation with their new platoon sergeant. My Battle Buddy chose not to report at the time trying to forge a working relationship with the SFC, and did talk to them about the situation. The working relationship was very strained afterwards, especially because the platoon sergeant was rarely at work causing this junior leader to pull up the slack without complaint.
Where the situation hit a pinnacle point was when the new platoon sergeant degraded them in front of the platoon’s subordinates openly. The NCO brought everything to the attention of their First Sergeant and Commander using the open door policy. The junior NCO owned their mistake and understood that they may face a summarized Art15 for potential disrespect contingent on the findings. The platoon sergeant never showed back up for the Commander to make a decision, nor did he ever counsel the NCO. No ramification or corrective action was taken, however; the junior NCO has now been bounced around multiple job positions that have nothing to do with their MOS. While working for their First Sergeant, the Commander tried to shift the blame of his mistake onto my peer while they were on emergency leave and had nothing to do with either incident. Once they returned from emergency leave the NCO was transferred again.
This NCO was highly motivated, highly motivated at their job and considering going indefinite. They now want to submit a 4187 for early separation and simply get out of the military all together. To make matters worse, they reached out to their First Sergeant and were told to “ride it out”. I understand this is a public forum so many of the details have been left out, but I am at a loss as to what to recommend. Please help.
Invite others to respond by typing @name
EO
Leadership
Mentorship
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 21
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Go to JAG immediately. If he has the juevos tell him to go the higher HQs. But wait until the JAG visit. Have him write down events and dates, print incriminating emails, and other supporting documents. I forgot one more thing, discuss what is happening with the EO Rep.
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CPT (Join to see)
Trial Defense Services (TDS). Go EO and IG first. TDS is generally only for service members who face UCMJ action.
The question I have here is why is this SFC being allowed to miss work?
The question I have here is why is this SFC being allowed to miss work?
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MAJ Ken Landgren
For your edification IG is to help with the efficiency of units, help soldiers, and family members.
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On posts like this, it's hard to provide some guidance. See, we only have heard one side of the story and it's very broad. I haven't heard blatant facts leading to something illegal, but the perception of one stating there was a violation. Don't take this as disregard to the original complaint. Just that I yet to hear a valid complaint. Additionally, how would a junior know if the commander ever counseled the plt Sgt. That's honestly none of the juniors business. That counseling (if publicized) would strip the plt Sgt of their power base. So honestly, I disregard that statement completely. The junior should have filed a complaint. And there are about 90% of the leaders here that have been degraded when they did something at one point or another in their career. Again, I'm not saying there isn't a valid claim. But you cannot sit on a complaint and use it when it is beneficial to you or as a blackmail card. If the platoon sergeant crossed a line, they need to report it. Even if it is in open forum with the company leadership present. Finally, plenty of us have worked out of our MOS. It's referred to as a broadening assignment. It betters you to understand señor leader roles. If you pump gas for your entire career, that's all you're equipped to do. But step out of that realm for a bit and learn roles other than your own and you become a leader.
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SGT Nia Chiaraluce
To clarify MSG, the junior NCO was never counseled, for any misconduct what so ever. Has yet to be quartly counseled at all since they pinned, and is being bounced so much they can't forge anything significant in a job role.
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MSG (Join to see)
What I'm saying is that I've been bounced around too. I was traded to another company, two months later another platoon, two months later the orderly room, two months later the operations sergeant, then I was pinned SSG and took a platoon. I thought that time to be the most beneficial. See I used to talk smack about the orderly, training room, etc. Until I did the job. That's just me. Again, real hard to dive into this situation. Just not enough facts. I know you. Ant say too much.
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This is a very sensitive situation. I would caution a lot of details. If you need to some further help feel free to message me. Besides that I will take a swing at this.
This is a combination of the "Good Ole Boy" and Toxic leadership. It makes a very difficult situation. Fort Bragg is a very population base as it is the home of FORSCOM. When a unit make the blotter and serious issues are exposed they make may their way to the highest levels and result a some serious ramifications.
In relation to that poor excuse of a SFC, the command team does not want attention. An NCO that high in the food chain will reflect poorly on the command team. If there is an EO complaint made then the 1SG should have known and if he didn't act it will lead to the end of his career. I am sure they all know this and don't want it to go anywhere. Another reason they want your peer to move around so much is so he can't establish any credit anywhere to where he may make this claim.
Something most be done about this. If not we will see another question about this same issue. I have a feeling that he has done this before. If they are not serious about the allegations then I am sure that they have gotten away with it in the past. Who knows how many soldiers could have fell victim to this toxic leadership. As a soldier we must act to prevent anyone in this command that may be a toxic leader to being promoted.
I would seek the help from a Battalion EO Rep or Open Door the CSM. If the CSM is aware of such information he must act. I hope that an NCO at that level understands the seriousness of such an issue.
This is a combination of the "Good Ole Boy" and Toxic leadership. It makes a very difficult situation. Fort Bragg is a very population base as it is the home of FORSCOM. When a unit make the blotter and serious issues are exposed they make may their way to the highest levels and result a some serious ramifications.
In relation to that poor excuse of a SFC, the command team does not want attention. An NCO that high in the food chain will reflect poorly on the command team. If there is an EO complaint made then the 1SG should have known and if he didn't act it will lead to the end of his career. I am sure they all know this and don't want it to go anywhere. Another reason they want your peer to move around so much is so he can't establish any credit anywhere to where he may make this claim.
Something most be done about this. If not we will see another question about this same issue. I have a feeling that he has done this before. If they are not serious about the allegations then I am sure that they have gotten away with it in the past. Who knows how many soldiers could have fell victim to this toxic leadership. As a soldier we must act to prevent anyone in this command that may be a toxic leader to being promoted.
I would seek the help from a Battalion EO Rep or Open Door the CSM. If the CSM is aware of such information he must act. I hope that an NCO at that level understands the seriousness of such an issue.
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You know this is unfortunate, but only based on what you have stated here. I would have to side for what the 1SG said "ride it out"... they may know something that is unforeseen that might be in the works. Without knowing it's hard to give good solid advice besides to wait to see if they trouble moves away from the situation. We had a similar incident where a PSG was the culprit because he was doing the ROAD option (Retired on Active Duty.) the command had plans to move him out and it took them some time to set that up. And they couldn't let that fact be known so everyone that had trouble had to just sit tight until he was moved away from the situation. I like what MAJ Ken Landgren said, GO to JAG. that is so they can evaluate the legal options without making a formal complaint, that might hurt more than it helps. But Check the option to make sure.
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I would advise them to talk to the chaplain as well as the EO rep for the command in order to discuss their options in a non-hostile environment.
I recommend against using the CSM open door policy due to my own personal expeirences with my COC at Fort Bragg. Going to the CSM as the individual complaint makes you look like you're (the soldier) causing problems/have personal issues. If someone speaks with the CSM on your (the soldier's) behalf then the situation can be explained without emotions getting involved and the CSM can look at the issue more objectively.
It's a sticky situation, so he needs to know there's a possibility that it won't be resolved despite the actions he takes.
I recommend against using the CSM open door policy due to my own personal expeirences with my COC at Fort Bragg. Going to the CSM as the individual complaint makes you look like you're (the soldier) causing problems/have personal issues. If someone speaks with the CSM on your (the soldier's) behalf then the situation can be explained without emotions getting involved and the CSM can look at the issue more objectively.
It's a sticky situation, so he needs to know there's a possibility that it won't be resolved despite the actions he takes.
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Now the other side of me. I'm tired of toxic leaders. If this plt Sgt is a toxic leader, the platoon would back the complaint. Report this situation if it merits. Go see your EOA. they are certain to help. Use the open door policy and see the CSM. also, have a heart to heart with the 1sg. Tell him how you feel. Hold back nothing. Allow him to fix this. Seems that he may have information regarding the situation that you're not privy to. Remember, you aren't privy to senior leadership counseling. But in a formal complaint, you will be privy to the ramifications of his actions. Good luck. Glad you asked here for some suppor. I get that you can't say everything. But with what you said, it's hard to help.
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At this point, I would say it's past time to hit the IG button, not the EO one. EO actions should be focused on clear instances of ethnic/gender/whatever bias, while this stinks of conduct unbecoming and conduct contrary to the good order and discipline at multiple levels.
With the caveat that I'm not a lawyer, I would wager that any summary article 15 would be eminently appealable on the grounds that the commander's delay has violated proper procedures for non-judicial punishment -- the max period for suspending punishment is only 6 months, and a soldier is normally allowed only a couple of days for deciding whether or not to accept the non-judicial proceedings, so a commander sitting on a hearing for weeks or months without good cause is clearly exceptional.
I might consider a courtesy call to the CSM prior to going to the IG, but keeping in mind that somebody at battalion should have noticed an NCO getting bounced around to different positions and asked "Why?"
Definitely take the time to write down notes and dig up any documentation (e.g., copies of the DA 2627 associated with the summary non-judicial proceedings) and any potentially corroborative witnesses. Also have a clear idea of what corrective measures are desired -- disciplinary actions, corrective training, rehabilitative reassignment, whatever the NCO expects to make the nightmare end.
With the caveat that I'm not a lawyer, I would wager that any summary article 15 would be eminently appealable on the grounds that the commander's delay has violated proper procedures for non-judicial punishment -- the max period for suspending punishment is only 6 months, and a soldier is normally allowed only a couple of days for deciding whether or not to accept the non-judicial proceedings, so a commander sitting on a hearing for weeks or months without good cause is clearly exceptional.
I might consider a courtesy call to the CSM prior to going to the IG, but keeping in mind that somebody at battalion should have noticed an NCO getting bounced around to different positions and asked "Why?"
Definitely take the time to write down notes and dig up any documentation (e.g., copies of the DA 2627 associated with the summary non-judicial proceedings) and any potentially corroborative witnesses. Also have a clear idea of what corrective measures are desired -- disciplinary actions, corrective training, rehabilitative reassignment, whatever the NCO expects to make the nightmare end.
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I appriciate all of the responces very much. I do apologize for lack of details, however; public forum can get you in a significant amount of trouble today. Please reach out and add me if based on what I have shared on here is something worth pressing further.
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Without knowing all the facts it is hard to form an opinion, however, 82nd ABN DIV and subordinate units do have an extensive track record of ostracizing and retaliation against troops they feel to be a threat; or even those who filed formal complaints.
Also, senior leaders should never degrade a junior leader in front of subordinate troops, as those troops may lose respect for the person, and thereby the rank worn by the degraded leader. NCO business is NCO business and should never be handled in front of junior soldiers.
Finally, I suggest reading up on the Service-member's Whistle-Blower Protection Act.
http://www.dodig.mil/Programs/whistleblower/index.html
Also, senior leaders should never degrade a junior leader in front of subordinate troops, as those troops may lose respect for the person, and thereby the rank worn by the degraded leader. NCO business is NCO business and should never be handled in front of junior soldiers.
Finally, I suggest reading up on the Service-member's Whistle-Blower Protection Act.
http://www.dodig.mil/Programs/whistleblower/index.html
DoD IG - Whistleblower Protection
Click here to access the newly released"Guide to Investigating Military Whistleblower Reprisal and Restriction Complaints"
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