Posted on Mar 5, 2015
NCOER after article 15; What are my obligations and options?
67.6K
115
69
12
12
0
Hi, all. I had a career first last night; One of my subordinate NCOs got a field grade article 15 for inappropriate relationship with a subordinate. He is reduced in rank to E5, and has 11 years in service. There will be no GOMR. I want to rehabilitate this Soldier, but in this age of drawdown, I don't know if that's possible.
So here is my question, since I am in uncharted territory. What am I obligated to include in his next NCOER? It's more than 180 days out, if that makes a difference. There will be the glaringly obvious difference in rank from his last eval to his current one. Is it an automatic Needs Improvement? Is it a NO for one or more of the Army Values? I could do these things very easily, but am I required to?
I'm angry with him, but I also want to help him climb out of the hole he dug himself into. I remember a time when an NCO could bounce back from UCMJ action. Now, in the age of drawdown, I don't know if I have time to help him redeem himself. With a field grade article 15 and a bad NCOER, he would have little chance of surviving the next QMP board. I appreciate and look forward to your counsel.
So here is my question, since I am in uncharted territory. What am I obligated to include in his next NCOER? It's more than 180 days out, if that makes a difference. There will be the glaringly obvious difference in rank from his last eval to his current one. Is it an automatic Needs Improvement? Is it a NO for one or more of the Army Values? I could do these things very easily, but am I required to?
I'm angry with him, but I also want to help him climb out of the hole he dug himself into. I remember a time when an NCO could bounce back from UCMJ action. Now, in the age of drawdown, I don't know if I have time to help him redeem himself. With a field grade article 15 and a bad NCOER, he would have little chance of surviving the next QMP board. I appreciate and look forward to your counsel.
UCMJ
Punishment
Evaluations
NCOER
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 23
0
0
0
Well damn that IS a problem. Actually I do not believe that we are in a draw down any longer. President Trump announced upon election his plans to restore the armed forces to a larger force capable of actually defending the nation against the likes of the Red China, Russia, N. Korea, and Iran.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
i rail on military life and it's ruin people mentality over bullshit.a shot at redemption is what all of us hope for. i dont think this is the kind of act to ruin a career.. however as an adult and leader he should know better. cultivate him and offer opportunities to rise above his mess. we are all humans and we all suffer from the dumbass syndrome. and we have had many a dumbass in uniform rise up and do great things. i reference ssg maynard harrison smith.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
In my opinion, he will mostly likely be QMP. Some things you can soldier your way out but that is the exception. Best advise for him is to plan on becoming a civilian again and find a job.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
I think what this soldier did was inexcusable when you become a supervisor the first thing you learn is that you can be friendly with your subordinates but not friends. That is why you are transferred out of your old platoon so you don't have to supervise and evaluate your friends. To have a relationship with a subordinate especially an intimate one which this sounds like dishonors the rank and uniform. I don't believe that this won't occur again, but it does show a weakness in judgement and honor. How you address this will determine what you do in the future if it happens to someone else. So good luck in retraining this NCO as the Command did leave him in the NCO ranks take that as a guide.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
If the article 15 is restricted, can it be mentioned in the ncoer? Can the negative ncoer be restricted also.
(0)
(0)
CSM Mark Gerecht
Yes. The behavior can be mentioned but the imposition of an Article 15 cannot be mentioned
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
0
0
0
SFC Jackson,
A RFC NCOER is most definitely what should happen. With him only having 11 years in, that doesn't mean that his military career is 100% over. QMP could happen, but there is a chance that it couldn't. It really all depends on if he can be rehabilitated or not (it's totally up to him). I commend you for wanting to take the time to work with him. I know it'll be a hard NCOER to write, but I also know that, if it were me, I wouldn't hold back on the bullets I put on there. I do agree that his punishment has already been imposed, but at the same time, his actions need to be reflected on his RFC NCOER. If it has to be harsh, then so be it. Because he did it to himself. I personally would dig into AR 623-3 and DA PAM 623-3 and seek the advise from my seniors. Good luck!
A RFC NCOER is most definitely what should happen. With him only having 11 years in, that doesn't mean that his military career is 100% over. QMP could happen, but there is a chance that it couldn't. It really all depends on if he can be rehabilitated or not (it's totally up to him). I commend you for wanting to take the time to work with him. I know it'll be a hard NCOER to write, but I also know that, if it were me, I wouldn't hold back on the bullets I put on there. I do agree that his punishment has already been imposed, but at the same time, his actions need to be reflected on his RFC NCOER. If it has to be harsh, then so be it. Because he did it to himself. I personally would dig into AR 623-3 and DA PAM 623-3 and seek the advise from my seniors. Good luck!
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Not sure if u have completed the deed as of yet...but he would need a RFC NCOER time he became an E5. His next NCOER would be due in 12 months if you are still his rater. When u dont have an option then you dont have an option do what the regulations tell you to do.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
QMP is inevitable for him. His next NCOER is not 180 days away, rather 365 days from the Relief for Cause that is required right now. Anytime an NCO is reduced, a Relief for Cause is in conjunction with it, because he/she is being relieved of their current rank.
As far as the Army Values are concerned with the NCOER, NO is a definite for Honor and Integrity. Anytime anybody gets a no on any of the Values, Honor automatically gets one. Don't believe me? Honor is "lives up to the Army Values." It's a shame that this has to happen, but an example must be made to show that this behavior is not tolerable. That said, don't take the easy way out not do your duty.
The degree of NEEDS IMPROVEMENT really depends on the extent of the relationship and how long it went on for.
As far as the Army Values are concerned with the NCOER, NO is a definite for Honor and Integrity. Anytime anybody gets a no on any of the Values, Honor automatically gets one. Don't believe me? Honor is "lives up to the Army Values." It's a shame that this has to happen, but an example must be made to show that this behavior is not tolerable. That said, don't take the easy way out not do your duty.
The degree of NEEDS IMPROVEMENT really depends on the extent of the relationship and how long it went on for.
(0)
(0)
CSM Mark Gerecht
SSG Scott keep this in mind. If a Soldier has an inappropriate relationship we could tear his evaluation report up all over the place. I would ask is this fair? If you were the Soldier in question and I dinged you on Integrity, Honor, Leadership, and in every other place possible is this fair? Consider this mention the incident in the most appropriate place with the most appropriate comment. then give the Soldier credit for everything they did well. They are already in a very bad position of their own making. Let the board make the decision based on a fair and honest evaluation. We have the power and authority it is our duty and responsibility to use it properly and not abuse it.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Awesome Topic. I am normally pretty good at NCOER situations but this one I would have to read up on.
I would have to read the regulation again personally. I would scrub AR 623-3 and the DA PAM.
You are his rater though, what are the Senior Raters thoughts?
Finally I would seek advice from Seniors you know and not just Rally Point. Any CSM's and 1SG/MSG's
I would have to read the regulation again personally. I would scrub AR 623-3 and the DA PAM.
You are his rater though, what are the Senior Raters thoughts?
Finally I would seek advice from Seniors you know and not just Rally Point. Any CSM's and 1SG/MSG's
(0)
(0)
SFC Josh Jackson
Roger, I've been talking with my seniors. His senior rater wants him gone and his reviewer wants to crush his soul. He definitely turned my shop upside down.
(0)
(0)
CSM Mark Gerecht
SSG Fay the senior leader’s comments and feelings should be irrelevant. The Rater’s evaluation Is separate and distinct and they can even be in conflict with one another. Just food for thought
(0)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google