Posted on Dec 24, 2013
NCOER integrity; others writing a 1/1 for themselves when they don't deserve it?
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The NCOER is the NCO's report card, that could make you or break you. Do you think it's fair for you to do your best and recieve anything other than a 1/1from your rater while other subpar NCO's consistently write their own 1/1 NCOER's? Does this frustrate you?
NCOER
NCOs
Integrity
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 39
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Respectfully it's not my place to worry about what my peers reports cards are saying and although it can be frustrating to see someone whose a sub-par performer still get a 1/1 in time it will catch up to them. This year alone I have seen over 200 NCOERs, many of which I kicked back for not meeting quantifiable standards in the block they're marking excellence in. It's the reviewer and 1SG/CSM's responsibility to ensure integrity remains paramount!
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LTC David Haines
I have to agree with the 1SG, SFC Martinis. The supervisors of the NCO's writing their own 1/1 NCOERS are failing in their duties. It is wrong, but there is nothing you can do about it but ensure you are doing your best and you are ensuring the integrity of the system for your Soldiers. Inflating ratings as an answer will only make matters worse across the NCO Corps. While not always, these NCO's are found out over time
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CW2 (Join to see)
I agree with 1SG. Too many NCOs are concerned about what other NCOs get. The report cards are subjective. Meaning your opinion on someone's performance is not relevant to the rater's opinion. And the rater, even if the NCO wrote the report, still has to sign the report and by signing agrees with what the NCO wrote.
Usually people say "I don't see how this person was promoted or not promoted" but you don't know their entire career or what was on their reports.
If they have sub par performance but still get a 1/1, chances are they will not have legit bullets to support the 1/1.
I have never sat on a board, but I know from past board AARs that they focus more on the bullets than the rating itself.
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CPT Aaron Kletzing
I really liked 1SG Rink's response. That's exactly what I would hope. Thank you for being the type of leader you are, 1SG.
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SSG (Join to see)
I have to agree with SFC Butler's comment. There are too many NCOs getting promoted who have written their own NCOERs and heavily fluffed them up while others who DO their job don't get selected. The toxic leadership is going up while the great or good leaders are being pushed out. I've seen personnel get relieved and STILL make the list. Unfortunately, there are many decent ones who don't care about that and are more concerned about themselves, which results in more toxic leadership. To rephrase what SFC Gates stated above, does the NCO truly care about the unit and the Soldiers, whether subordinate to them or not?
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NCOER's should not be written by the NCO. However at times NCO's have to take their careers in their own hands and write their NCOER"s because either their leaders are lazy or do not know how to write an NCOER. The NCOER is an integral component of the promotion process. Which is the reason NCO's do everything within their power to ensure they get a great NCOER. The NCOER will remain a controversial topic because it is the clearest snapshot of a soldier's performance to members of a promotion board and soldiers who want to get promoted will do whatever they have to do to level the playing field of inflated NCOER's. Because some soldiers do receive inflated evaluations because of cronyism.
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CSM Colin Patterson
I see we have officers chiming in on this conversation on NCOER's which is very good because officers are the biggest offenders when it comes to late NCOER's or poorly written NCOER's. So I appreciate the input the officers are giving. However, until the Army Incorporate NCOER writing into Junior Officer training there will always be issues with NCOER's written by junior officer's. As a 1SG I always had to battle with my Platoon leaders and Company Cdr's over poorly written NCOER's and at time wished the ARMY would let the 1SG write the evaluations for his platoon sergeants. Because in reality I was doing those evaluations based on the number of corrections I had to make. I always believe an NCO should document everything they do during a rating period. Because we all know that the initial counseling and quarterly counseling are not being done like they are supposed to be done. I believe if you document everything you did there should be no controversy when it is time for your NCOER to be written and no one can accuse you of receiving an inflated NCOER.
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SSG (Join to see)
CSM, my question is what do we do about the inflated NCOERs? The inflated NCOERs are creating toxic leaders while preventing the truly deserving from promotion.
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MAJ (Join to see)
CSM,
Fully agree. When I was a new LT and younger CPT I would work with the NCO on their NCOER being I didn't have too much experience at that time with writing them. I figured that a NCO with 15 years in would know the process and what needed to be written better than a young CPT with four.
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CSM Colin Patterson
Toxic leaders are writing inflated NCOER's that create more Toxic Leaders. Until we get rid of nepotism, cronyism and the good old boy system. We will always have Toxic Leaders. As a leader you must ensure you do what is in your scope to ensure that people that you have influence over do not write inflated NCOER's. These changes come about in incremental steps there are no wholesale changes. Therefore if we as leaders do it in within our circle and we can get everyone within our circle to buy in, we will be able to bring about change. However, we live in a smoke and mirrors environment where people think leadership is about badges and tabs. A few current and former Service Members disparaged my comments a few days ago when I said that having a Beret or Bunch of tabs do not make you a leader. Some of them displayed their juvenile behavior by calling me Leg and PX Soldier. Because I stated that a successful career is judged by the rank you attained and the positive contributions that you have made to the entire force not based on whether you earned a Ranger Tab or Airborne wings. The majority of people on the thread disagreed they stated that Soldiers with Berets and Tabs are the best leaders regardless of what rank they attain. With this kind of thinking very prevalent in Army the good old boy system will continue to flourish and we will continue to produce a myriad of Toxic leaders. In the end my retort was I don't have any tabs or badges but I have plenty of soldiers with badges and tabs who do work for me so tell me who is the better leader now. When we have leaders who are making biased statements saying Badges and Tabs are what makes you a leader, don't you think we will continue to have inflated NCOER's.
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The Senior NCO of the organization is responsible for ensuring fairness across the board. Now, I know that it's hard to ensure that there is equality across the force, but it is the Senior NCOs in the branch that should be mentoring the Bde/Bn CSMs to ensure we are all applying the same standards so that NCOERs can be objectively compared against each other.
Now, I do see a lot of NCOERs that the "ratings" are inflated, but when you read the bullets, the bullets aren't inflated. So, my job is to ensure that those two things match.
Now, as far as the board panel, it is very easy to tell who the 1/1s really are. Lot's of folks may be "rated" as a 1/1, but there bullets are far from it and it is very easy to tell who the true top performers are, regardless of the actual rating - it's all about the bullets.
And, it's not about the wordy, fluffy, long-word bullets - it is about communicating the impact in an efficient manner. Folks should spend more time learning how to write effectively.
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SSG (Join to see)
CSM I am having some serious difficulty finding out some information on NCOERs. I have been reading AR 623-3 and I also saw USAREC Pam 623-2. In the PAM 623-2 it give a break down for the senior rater blocks. If Among the best block it is either a 1 or 2 and what separates that is the first bullet a 1 gets promote now and a 2 get promote ahead of peers and a 3 gets promote with peer. But in the AR 623-3 I can not find anything that speaks about senior rater comment. My reason for asking last year I got a 2 1 fully capable and promote ahead of peers. This year I also got a 2 1 promote with peers. My question to you or any one else that can help is this. Where can I find what bullet should be placed with numerical value.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG (Join to see) - there is no "requirement" for a specific bullet to match a particular rating.
The bullets rather provide the nuances/gradiations of the numerical ratings. There are many folks who are 2/1s, and in order to differentiate/rank them, we read the bullets to determine who would be in the top 5th to bottom 5th of each rating.
The bullets rather provide the nuances/gradiations of the numerical ratings. There are many folks who are 2/1s, and in order to differentiate/rank them, we read the bullets to determine who would be in the top 5th to bottom 5th of each rating.
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SSG (Join to see)
CSM so a 2 1 can be among the best promote ahead of peer cause that would separate me form other 2 1 correct
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG (Join to see) - absolutely. mostly depends upon the "skill" of the senior rater in conveying where in the myriad of 2/1s you belong - very important distinction, as that crowd is very large and mostly indistinguishable except for the quality of the sr rater comments.
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NCOERs, like any other rating or evaluation tool, are going to be subjective. We attempt to make it as objective as possible. As an NCO the best way to ensure that you get a fair and objective NCOER is to ensure that you get properly counseled. Laying out what constitutes "Excellence" in your rating versus "Success" and "Needs Improvement" is a great way to make all parties accountable to an objective rating. And although it may sound strange, it is our responsibility to communicate that to our rater and encourage the rating process.
In my career, I've had to write a majority, if not all, of my own NCOERs. That has helped me become extremely familiar with AR 623-3 and DA Pam 623-3, regulations that all NCOs should read and have available for referencing. Many NCOs, especially Senior NCOs are not comfortable with the counseling process and have difficulty in being honest with our subordinates.
My advice to junior leaders is to encourage the counseling process with your rating chain. Develop a relationship with your Senior Rater. Remember, we promote based on "Potential" so the Senior Rater is the most important person in your rating chain. For many NCOs, we focus on our relationship with the Rater and do not engage our Senior Raters enough. The Senior Rater addresses Promotion, Potential, Performance, and Professional Development! Promotion boards pay a lot of attention to the opinion of the Senior Rater.
My advice to all leaders at all levels is to: 1) Become familiar and comfortable with the counseling process; 2) Strive for objectivity in the rating of your subordinates by identifying what constitutes Excellence, Success and Needs Improvement in your counseling sessions. NCOERs should not be a surprise to the rated Soldier; 3) Conduct counseling sessions as required and when needed; 4) Develop a relationship with the Senior Rater; 5) Encourage and engage your rating chain if they are not conducting counseling as directed by Army doctrine; 6) Perform your job to the best of your ability and make your contributions to the organization undeniable.
These steps should help you get a fair and objective NCOER.
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CW5 (Join to see)
MSG Medina,
Great Post. I think it's important to become very familiar with AR & DA PAM as you have mentioned. I definitely allow my Senior NCOs to provide me a rough draft of what their NCOER "should" look like, I then tweak it as necessary and we have an active dialogue about it. I think this is one of the best communication methods because it fosters two-way communication.
Great Post. I think it's important to become very familiar with AR & DA PAM as you have mentioned. I definitely allow my Senior NCOs to provide me a rough draft of what their NCOER "should" look like, I then tweak it as necessary and we have an active dialogue about it. I think this is one of the best communication methods because it fosters two-way communication.
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CSM Mike Maynard
Chief Jones, it seems that you look at the NCOER more of a grade card than a counseling tool.
By having the NCO write-up his draft NCOER, it eliminates the part where the NCOER becomes the end product of your final counseling session where you discuss the goals/objectives that you all sat down together and crafted during the initial counseling session.
When NCOs write up their own NCOER, it is strictly focused on accomplishments that fit into the blocks, it's not focused on counseling and improving performance. Raters must do more than just tweak what the NCO is submitting.
NCOERs are counseling tools to improve performance.
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SGT Michael McMahon
As a former PSNCO, and the person at the battalion that received and review all of the NCOER's for the battalion, I could tell the ones who were written by the rater and the ones written by the NCO being reviewed. I would kick back those ones that were obviously not being done IAW the regulations, before it hit my boss's (The CSM's) desk. As it is the DUTY and the INTEGRITY of the Rater (either NCO or Officer) to write an HONEST evaluation, and it does the evaluated NCO any good to allow him or her to make themselves look like the best thing since sliced bread.
Would you allow your lower enlisted to write their own monthly counseling statements, making themselves look like those NCO's who write their own NCOER's. It is wrong, shows a lack of Honor and Integrity on the part of the NCOs writing their own, and a lack of Honor, Integrity and Duty on the Part of the Rater! We are the Backbone of the Armed Forces, and we of all people need to uphold the standards of our respective branches.
If your Rater asks you to write your NCOER, politely say to that individual, "what benefit to our nation and our service, is it for me to do your duty?" If you are a rater and are asking your rated NCO to write their NCOER, what kind of example of being a PROFESSIONAL are you setting for them? If you are a Senior Rater or Reviewer and allowing the Rater to do such, you are just as bad, and derelict in your Duties as NCO's or Officers. When it comes NCOER time, take the time and recite the Creed of the Noncommissioned Officer and then live the Creed, especially your responsibilities to your superiors and subordinates, and do what is your duty, to your service, your superiors and subordinates!
But that comes from a former Personnel Services NCO, who was just an average NCO, but had the integrity to not permit my Rater to overrate me on my NCOER, when I was being medically discharged.
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SFC Gary Fox
CSM Mike M, I agree with you. I managed my career. I ended up writing about 75% of my NCOERs because I had raters who just didn't seem to care about quarterly counseling or writing the NCOER itself. I would remind them 90 days out from the annual being due it was time for quarterly counseling and preparing the NCOER. If I were blown off, I would start the NCOER myself, print it off, give it to them and tell them we need to start completing the bullet comments. 60 days out when nothing was done, I would start rating myself, print the NCOER out, give it to my rater and ask, "How's this looking?" It was pathetic that I had to take this approach to get my NCOER completed.
I always conducted quarterly counseling with those I rated and their NCOERs were always completed on time. Many of those I rated were surprised I conducted quarterly counseling and didn't have to be prodded to do so.
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All of the above makes sense...and why I check, double, and triple check facts and my own notes. Since before basic, I have always trusted one Soldier....myself.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SGT Ogonowski, sorry for your experiences that have caused your lack of trust.
ADP-1/ADRP-1 talk about how "Trust" is one of the bedrocks that our Army is built on and how you can't have effective units without it.
To counter your experiences, ensure that you build trust in your subordinates so that they won't have the same experience that you have had and will come to trust their chain because of what you exhibit as a leader.
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MSG Martinis Butler
SGT Ogonowski,
CSM Maynard bought up a great point. Its about making tomorrow better than today, start setting a trusting foundation for your Soldiers and the individuals you work with. Give them a platform so we wont be stuck on the what it used to be but focus on the what it could be.
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SSG (Join to see)
Gentlemen,
Thanks for all the great advice. Ironic that with all the efforts to make a better Army for tommorow, rank is not necessary a direct reflection of true leadership and character, as oftentimes true NCOs are looking for ways to help Soldiers and oftentimes do not focus primarily on their own careers, LOL! Mentorship may be a lost art in alot of ways, and it's tough to see Soldiers straining to find good ones, when ultimately it should be as close as a first line supervisor...
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It is fair to receive what is earned and a 1/1 is the best and is actually used more than it should be. A NCO writing their own NCOER is not fair, although it is usually to make up for poor leadership/substandard supervisors because it HAS to be done. Those leaders/supervisors not being held accountable for properly counseling, rating and mentoring the NCO frustrates me.
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It's all fine and dandy that we know "what's supposed to happen", but the reality is either that NCO is writing their own NCOER or their supervisor is playing favorites with the PT stud or the pretty skirt! I myself and a peer have been victims of this, where our Platoon Sergeant wrote our NCOERs with generic BS, all Success ratings, and a new female Soldier received all Excellence ratings, 1/1 Among the Best, and this was her first NCOER under this Platoon Sergeant. CSMs and other senior leaders are lazy when it comes to this subject and we continue to sweep it under the rug, hoping something will change, but it never does.
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SSG (Join to see)
The issue I see with fixing it at lower than whole scale is this; the NCO's that are in the unit which is conducting business the way it should in this regard will have less 1-1's and E's on the backside resulting in the NCO's not being able to compete with those who are still doing it the lazy way. We pass students along in schools across the country and half of the honor grads would not have been above average in the days where we had to open books to gain info. I love the internet and believe it has brought us into a new information area, however it has also limited our general knowledge. I recall seeking information on something to do with the wear of the army uniform so I found 670-1 and started reading I found what I was looking for but along the way I found out several other things while looking for what I needed in the first place. Control F has taken that away.
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SSG (Join to see)
The issue I see with fixing it at lower than whole scale is this; the NCO's that are in the unit which is conducting business the way it should in this regard will have less 1-1's and E's on the backside resulting in the NCO's not being able to compete with those who are still doing it the lazy way. We pass students along in schools across the country and half of the honor grads would not have been above average in the days where we had to open books to gain info. I love the internet and believe it has brought us into a new information area, however it has also limited our general knowledge. I recall seeking information on something to do with the wear of the army uniform so I found 670-1 and started reading I found what I was looking for but along the way I found out several other things while looking for what I needed in the first place. Control F has taken that away.
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SSG (Join to see)
The issue I see with fixing it at lower than whole scale is this; the NCO's that are in the unit which is conducting business the way it should in this regard will have less 1-1's and E's on the backside resulting in the NCO's not being able to compete with those who are still doing it the lazy way. We pass students along in schools across the country and half of the honor grads would not have been above average in the days where we had to open books to gain info. I love the internet and believe it has brought us into a new information area, however it has also limited our general knowledge. I recall seeking information on something to do with the wear of the army uniform so I found 670-1 and started reading I found what I was looking for but along the way I found out several other things while looking for what I needed in the first place. Control F has taken that away.
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Honestly, I think if NCOER's were done the way they should be, 70% of the Army should have 3's, Fully Capable, 20% would have 2's, and only 10% would have 1's, among the best. After all, if everyone is 1/1, among the best, then isn't that behavior now average?
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SFC Michael Hasbun
I suppose I'm an optimist CSM... Although that's still better than the 100% we currently have at 1/1...
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Evaluations, just like Awards, are a rough subject. The system is not necessary broken, but it is most assuredly corrupt, since there are some senior NCOs that only look at "well, I like this guy, and he gets 300+ on his PT test."
However, like CSM (Join to see) said, you shouldn't worry about what everyone else is getting, but yourself. Allow the Senior Leadership worry about integrity, and when you get up to that level, you can start fighting that battle on your front. Karma will kick them in the butt when their time comes.
However, like CSM (Join to see) said, you shouldn't worry about what everyone else is getting, but yourself. Allow the Senior Leadership worry about integrity, and when you get up to that level, you can start fighting that battle on your front. Karma will kick them in the butt when their time comes.
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