Posted on Mar 30, 2015
No CAR, no respect: The push to end the ribbon rack divide (Your thoughts?)
77.7K
159
93
6
6
0
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/03/30/cult-of-combat-action-ribbon-has-it-gone-too-far/70488570/
From the Marine Corps Times. Appeared on my feed, and thought it was worth sharing. Your thoughts appreciated.
- Full Disclosure: I do not have a CAR. Deployed to the Middle East twice during the Ceasefire. Got out before OIF/OEF were fully engaged. Was tagged for recruiting duty so likely would not have been deployed had I reenlisted.
Full story:
Master Sgt. Orlando Reyes was taken aback when he was ridiculed on social media for not having a Combat Action Ribbon after being named the 2014 Military Times' Marine of the Year.
While Reyes, a logistician, had three deployments to Iraq under his belt, his duties had never put him in a position to participate in a combat engagement.
"I didn't expect it to go so far," Reyes said of the criticism he experienced. "In today's era of social media and anonymity of computer posts, people are going to say what they want and there's no repercussions. They think, because of the rack of someone's chest, they have insight into that individual."
The growing discord surrounding Combat Action Ribbons — the award issued by the sea services for active participation in ground or surface combat — is troubling some leaders.
The online criticism illustrates an increasingly vocal perspective among Marines, especially those in the ground combat community. This perspective holds that a Marines' worth and authenticity is closely connected to combat experience, and that those who lack this experience are less deserving of respect.
In some ways, this viewpoint is a natural outgrowth of 14 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But Commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford is making it clear that he has no patience for it.
"The coin of the realm is the eagle, globe and anchor," Dunford told Marine Corps Times in a February interview. "It doesn't matter what [military occupational specialty] you have, it doesn't matter what deployments you've been on, it doesn't matter what ribbons are on your chest — it's about being a Marine."
'Stacking each other up'
When Dunford named Sgt. Maj. Ronald Green as his senior enlisted adviser in January, most Marines expressed interest in his background and the reputation he'd built as a thoughtful and involved leader. But a loud minority couldn't get past the stack of ribbons on his chest.
Green, a career artilleryman, did not have a Combat Action Ribbon.
"No CAR ... not the right guy for the job," one reader groused on Marine Corps Times' Facebook page following Green's selection. Others complained that the newly chosen sergeant major of the Marine Corps didn't measure up to other senior leaders who had earned combat valor awards.
Green took the comments in stride.
"We don't go around counting one another's ribbons, and, you know, kind of stacking each other up," he told Marine Corps Times. "We're actually too busy to do that."
When a Marine is tested in combat, Dunford said, how he or she performs is important. But, he added, the same can be said for every task and field to which Marines are assigned.
"Most Marines don't pick their MOS," he said. "Most of us do things that the Marine Corps tells us to do. And it really is about the quality of your performance in the task that you've been assigned that's most important, once you wear the eagle, globe and anchor. And that's how I'm going to approach this issue."
These comments from Dunford, a decorated infantry officer, represents a rebuke to the grunt-centric culture that glorifies combat experience above all else. What remains to be seen, though, is whether the commandant's message is enough to change the culture — or if only time can do that.
Green isn't the only Marine leader to face criticism for lack of a Combat Action Ribbon. Now-retired Gen. James Amos, the 35th commandant and the first from the aviation community, received so much heat online for his lack of a CAR that an aide once jumped into the fray to defend him.
"[Amos] has been in many a fight ... probably killed more enemy with his F-18 than any single company of grunts," the staffer wrote in a Facebook posting before thinking better of it and deleting the comment.
The division is a relatively new challenge for the Corps.
The Combat Action Ribbon did not even exist until February 1969, when the Navy and Marine Corps adopted it in the midst of the Vietnam War. It was retroactively applied to combat engagements stretching back to 1961, and later extended to cover combat dating from the December 7, 1941, Pearl Harbor attack that marked the U.S. entrance into World War II. The Coast Guard would adopt the Combat Action Ribbon much later, in 2008.
Marines evacuate the area as an MV-22B Osprey lands
Marines evacuate the area as an MV-22B Osprey lands in Thailand during during Exercise Cobra Gold 2014. There is a divide between some Marines who believe combat experience trumps all, and those who feel it should be respected, not revered. (Photo: Cpl. Zachary Scanlon/Marine Corps)
And prior to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Combat Action Ribbons were a rare sight rather than an expected one.
Andrew Northam, a Marine infantry veteran who served from 1990 to 1994, recalled the reverence that surrounded the CAR during that largely peacetime period.
"[CAR recipients] were more revered when I was in," Northam said. "A guy had three Combat Action Ribbons in my unit and he was like a god to us."
Because there were so few opportunities to earn a CAR, he said, they weren't treated like a badge of authenticity. And combat experience wasn't seen as a rite of passage among Marines, as it sometimes is today.
Northam, who deployed to Somalia in late 1993 to support Operation Support Hope, earned a Combat Action Ribbon there, but did not receive it until years later when it was retroactively authorized after he had left the service.
Receiving the award, even late, made Northam realize its significance as a recognition of what he experienced.
"When we looked back on our experience in Somalia, we always thought we should have gotten it; we felt a little robbed by that," he said. "We were taking mortar fire, in an offensive posture. It was a little bit of vindication having that."
Still, Northam believes the hype surrounding the ribbon has gone too far. When news of Green's selection as the Corps' top enlisted leader broke, Northam fired back at Green's critics on the blog USMCLife, calling the belief that senior leaders needed to sport a CAR "fanatical."
"Marines do not get to choose their duty stations; you go where you are assigned," Northam wrote. "As we wind down our nation's longest period at war, the Corps is facing many challenges; two of the biggest are dealing with the overall military drawdown and more importantly, dealing with returning vets and [post-traumatic stress]. Can [Green] conceivably do this without that precious ribbon? I believe so."
An imperfect award
Even today, following a decade and a half of war in two theaters, Combat Action Ribbons are less common than some perceive them to be. According to Marine Corps Manpower and Reserve Affairs, only 20,855 of the 184,567 Marines currently on active duty boast at least one CAR.
With combat arms fields — including infantry, artillery and mechanized units — making up roughly 22 percent of the active-duty force, that means less than half of active Marines in combat arms rate the award. That figure is likely to keep dwindling as wartime deployments are replaced with training, humanitarian and crisis response missions.
Logan Stark's Marine Corps experience was in many ways different from Northam's. He enlisted in 2007, as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were in full swing.
An infantry assaultman, Stark was surrounded by Marines who had already deployed and earned their Combat Action Ribbon. There was definite pressure, he said, to join their ranks.
"When I was a boot, there was the whole concept of, 'you aint sh-- until you got your Combat Action Ribbon," Stark said. "When you're coming up in the fleet, especially the time that I was in, you felt like that was a requirement of being an infantryman in the Marine Corps. It became something that you strived for, that you needed to be that complete Marine."
But there was a dark side to the CAR obsession, Stark soon realized. While deployed to Afghanistan's Sangin valley in 2010 and 2011, Stark said he encountered Marines who would insert themselves into patrols they didn't belong on, just so they could earn their Combat Action Ribbon. The experience altered the way he viewed the award.
"Is it a badge of honor and do I wear it with pride? Yes," said Stark, now a filmmaker and writer for the website Funker350. "But it only holds so much weight. I don't think we should judge people based on whether or not they have it. For some reason, we want to use these really easily identified symbols ... When did we get away from getting to know a person and getting to know their background before judging them?"
Stark said he hopes the Marine Corps will find a balance in which combat experience is honored, but viewed with perspective.
"I want to hear about a person's experiences; I want to learn from their combat," he said. "It shouldn't be a pedestal thing; it should be a way to learn from each other."
Reyes, the master sergeant, said he also observed Marines going out of their way to get a CAR during his deployments to Iraq. The trend wasn't limited to junior Marines, he said; he saw troops that were senior to him finagle their way onto convoys and other missions outside the wire to earn the coveted award. When they did, Reyes said it wasn't only unnecessary, but dangerous.
Now assigned to School of Infantry-East out of Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, Reyes said he encourages junior Marines to value their comrades' character and leadership qualities more than their ribbon stacks.
"We get so bent out of shape with these ribbons and awards that we sacrifice the most important thing to us as Marines: our integrity," he said.
From the Marine Corps Times. Appeared on my feed, and thought it was worth sharing. Your thoughts appreciated.
- Full Disclosure: I do not have a CAR. Deployed to the Middle East twice during the Ceasefire. Got out before OIF/OEF were fully engaged. Was tagged for recruiting duty so likely would not have been deployed had I reenlisted.
Full story:
Master Sgt. Orlando Reyes was taken aback when he was ridiculed on social media for not having a Combat Action Ribbon after being named the 2014 Military Times' Marine of the Year.
While Reyes, a logistician, had three deployments to Iraq under his belt, his duties had never put him in a position to participate in a combat engagement.
"I didn't expect it to go so far," Reyes said of the criticism he experienced. "In today's era of social media and anonymity of computer posts, people are going to say what they want and there's no repercussions. They think, because of the rack of someone's chest, they have insight into that individual."
The growing discord surrounding Combat Action Ribbons — the award issued by the sea services for active participation in ground or surface combat — is troubling some leaders.
The online criticism illustrates an increasingly vocal perspective among Marines, especially those in the ground combat community. This perspective holds that a Marines' worth and authenticity is closely connected to combat experience, and that those who lack this experience are less deserving of respect.
In some ways, this viewpoint is a natural outgrowth of 14 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But Commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford is making it clear that he has no patience for it.
"The coin of the realm is the eagle, globe and anchor," Dunford told Marine Corps Times in a February interview. "It doesn't matter what [military occupational specialty] you have, it doesn't matter what deployments you've been on, it doesn't matter what ribbons are on your chest — it's about being a Marine."
'Stacking each other up'
When Dunford named Sgt. Maj. Ronald Green as his senior enlisted adviser in January, most Marines expressed interest in his background and the reputation he'd built as a thoughtful and involved leader. But a loud minority couldn't get past the stack of ribbons on his chest.
Green, a career artilleryman, did not have a Combat Action Ribbon.
"No CAR ... not the right guy for the job," one reader groused on Marine Corps Times' Facebook page following Green's selection. Others complained that the newly chosen sergeant major of the Marine Corps didn't measure up to other senior leaders who had earned combat valor awards.
Green took the comments in stride.
"We don't go around counting one another's ribbons, and, you know, kind of stacking each other up," he told Marine Corps Times. "We're actually too busy to do that."
When a Marine is tested in combat, Dunford said, how he or she performs is important. But, he added, the same can be said for every task and field to which Marines are assigned.
"Most Marines don't pick their MOS," he said. "Most of us do things that the Marine Corps tells us to do. And it really is about the quality of your performance in the task that you've been assigned that's most important, once you wear the eagle, globe and anchor. And that's how I'm going to approach this issue."
These comments from Dunford, a decorated infantry officer, represents a rebuke to the grunt-centric culture that glorifies combat experience above all else. What remains to be seen, though, is whether the commandant's message is enough to change the culture — or if only time can do that.
Green isn't the only Marine leader to face criticism for lack of a Combat Action Ribbon. Now-retired Gen. James Amos, the 35th commandant and the first from the aviation community, received so much heat online for his lack of a CAR that an aide once jumped into the fray to defend him.
"[Amos] has been in many a fight ... probably killed more enemy with his F-18 than any single company of grunts," the staffer wrote in a Facebook posting before thinking better of it and deleting the comment.
The division is a relatively new challenge for the Corps.
The Combat Action Ribbon did not even exist until February 1969, when the Navy and Marine Corps adopted it in the midst of the Vietnam War. It was retroactively applied to combat engagements stretching back to 1961, and later extended to cover combat dating from the December 7, 1941, Pearl Harbor attack that marked the U.S. entrance into World War II. The Coast Guard would adopt the Combat Action Ribbon much later, in 2008.
Marines evacuate the area as an MV-22B Osprey lands
Marines evacuate the area as an MV-22B Osprey lands in Thailand during during Exercise Cobra Gold 2014. There is a divide between some Marines who believe combat experience trumps all, and those who feel it should be respected, not revered. (Photo: Cpl. Zachary Scanlon/Marine Corps)
And prior to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Combat Action Ribbons were a rare sight rather than an expected one.
Andrew Northam, a Marine infantry veteran who served from 1990 to 1994, recalled the reverence that surrounded the CAR during that largely peacetime period.
"[CAR recipients] were more revered when I was in," Northam said. "A guy had three Combat Action Ribbons in my unit and he was like a god to us."
Because there were so few opportunities to earn a CAR, he said, they weren't treated like a badge of authenticity. And combat experience wasn't seen as a rite of passage among Marines, as it sometimes is today.
Northam, who deployed to Somalia in late 1993 to support Operation Support Hope, earned a Combat Action Ribbon there, but did not receive it until years later when it was retroactively authorized after he had left the service.
Receiving the award, even late, made Northam realize its significance as a recognition of what he experienced.
"When we looked back on our experience in Somalia, we always thought we should have gotten it; we felt a little robbed by that," he said. "We were taking mortar fire, in an offensive posture. It was a little bit of vindication having that."
Still, Northam believes the hype surrounding the ribbon has gone too far. When news of Green's selection as the Corps' top enlisted leader broke, Northam fired back at Green's critics on the blog USMCLife, calling the belief that senior leaders needed to sport a CAR "fanatical."
"Marines do not get to choose their duty stations; you go where you are assigned," Northam wrote. "As we wind down our nation's longest period at war, the Corps is facing many challenges; two of the biggest are dealing with the overall military drawdown and more importantly, dealing with returning vets and [post-traumatic stress]. Can [Green] conceivably do this without that precious ribbon? I believe so."
An imperfect award
Even today, following a decade and a half of war in two theaters, Combat Action Ribbons are less common than some perceive them to be. According to Marine Corps Manpower and Reserve Affairs, only 20,855 of the 184,567 Marines currently on active duty boast at least one CAR.
With combat arms fields — including infantry, artillery and mechanized units — making up roughly 22 percent of the active-duty force, that means less than half of active Marines in combat arms rate the award. That figure is likely to keep dwindling as wartime deployments are replaced with training, humanitarian and crisis response missions.
Logan Stark's Marine Corps experience was in many ways different from Northam's. He enlisted in 2007, as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were in full swing.
An infantry assaultman, Stark was surrounded by Marines who had already deployed and earned their Combat Action Ribbon. There was definite pressure, he said, to join their ranks.
"When I was a boot, there was the whole concept of, 'you aint sh-- until you got your Combat Action Ribbon," Stark said. "When you're coming up in the fleet, especially the time that I was in, you felt like that was a requirement of being an infantryman in the Marine Corps. It became something that you strived for, that you needed to be that complete Marine."
But there was a dark side to the CAR obsession, Stark soon realized. While deployed to Afghanistan's Sangin valley in 2010 and 2011, Stark said he encountered Marines who would insert themselves into patrols they didn't belong on, just so they could earn their Combat Action Ribbon. The experience altered the way he viewed the award.
"Is it a badge of honor and do I wear it with pride? Yes," said Stark, now a filmmaker and writer for the website Funker350. "But it only holds so much weight. I don't think we should judge people based on whether or not they have it. For some reason, we want to use these really easily identified symbols ... When did we get away from getting to know a person and getting to know their background before judging them?"
Stark said he hopes the Marine Corps will find a balance in which combat experience is honored, but viewed with perspective.
"I want to hear about a person's experiences; I want to learn from their combat," he said. "It shouldn't be a pedestal thing; it should be a way to learn from each other."
Reyes, the master sergeant, said he also observed Marines going out of their way to get a CAR during his deployments to Iraq. The trend wasn't limited to junior Marines, he said; he saw troops that were senior to him finagle their way onto convoys and other missions outside the wire to earn the coveted award. When they did, Reyes said it wasn't only unnecessary, but dangerous.
Now assigned to School of Infantry-East out of Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, Reyes said he encourages junior Marines to value their comrades' character and leadership qualities more than their ribbon stacks.
"We get so bent out of shape with these ribbons and awards that we sacrifice the most important thing to us as Marines: our integrity," he said.
Combat
Leadership
Deployment
Respect
Ribbons
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 41
0
0
0
I once served with a Colonel who, although a recipient of the Navy Cross, often wore only his wings. His belief was that any helicopter pilot serving during the Vietnam era didn't need to display his personal awards on a continuous basis because the wings were adequate evidence of the character of his service. Similarly, I have never met the holder of one of the valor awards who looked down on contemporaries who had not been similarly honored, or needed a medal or ribbon to reinforce their self esteem. When the CAR was started, it was no big deal since the majority of those who had Vietnam experience had been in situations that merited the award. Willingness to place one's life on the line and "defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic" is the base from which all who serve start. Only those who demonstrate cowardness in the face of the opportunity to uphold that oath deserve second class status. Those who elect to categorize others as second class, unless they can prove cowardly conduct on the other persons part, need to analyze their criteria of bravery. I can testify being shot at and responding appropriately is no more noteworthy than the dedication of others who are serving with the realization such incidents are an expectation.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
One of my proudest moments was wearing my CAR to the birthday ball after OIF 1...
Of course, I'm in the Army now, so now my CAR is just greeted with "is that a reserve award or something?".. Ah well..
Of course, I'm in the Army now, so now my CAR is just greeted with "is that a reserve award or something?".. Ah well..
(0)
(0)
Suspended Profile
Keep the CAR, even though I don't have one myself. The Taliban didn't want to mess with me and my unit when we were out there, what can I say.... :) We were motivated, locked on, and didn't wear white sox!
Either way, it will always be something, in this never-ending rivalry and competition - within and outside the Marine Corps.
Either way, it will always be something, in this never-ending rivalry and competition - within and outside the Marine Corps.
0
0
0
I personally think the rack is a great award booster to morale - BUT, when I look at an individual I look for those accomplishments they may have done that were overlooked or were not important enough for ribbons and those at boy pats on the back. Ribbons do not make the solider any more then looking at the night starts makes you an astronomer.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
I want to caution people here that with the Stolen Valor issue that there ARE people who are using this situation and others like it to marginalize the service of veterans. There is also from what I see, a tendency to destroy each other based on nothing more than the CAR.
We do and there is no disputing it that we have unverified accounts and those accounts are similar. I am tracking every one of them that I detect. Now as to the faux pas of a few, these same souless miscreants are pushing those active duty who have either made mistakes or were remiss into a like category as those on the street corners who have never served and that is... inexcusable.
We can take whatever remedial action necessary to make sure everyone is current and representing correctly. I can't believe the number of ribbons some people have and especially in contrast to other wars and other generations. Be that as it may, we are the ARMED FORCES, not a bunch of John Cena Jarheads or Sgt Slaughters. We are the real deal outside of Nidal Hassan (Muslim Terrorist) and others who walk amongst us pilloring the lives of innocents.
I agree with the General in regard to regalia being more important to unit cohesion. The truth is, outside the military families and friends there are those who could give a rat's ass if we had one gun or one F-35 just as long as they reap a few dollars.
And for the posers out there, here and outside the 0's and 1's, stay classy SM and Veterans, we ARE the good guys. Overall. None perfect but at least we serve this great country and we spit in the eyes of those who call that into question.
We do and there is no disputing it that we have unverified accounts and those accounts are similar. I am tracking every one of them that I detect. Now as to the faux pas of a few, these same souless miscreants are pushing those active duty who have either made mistakes or were remiss into a like category as those on the street corners who have never served and that is... inexcusable.
We can take whatever remedial action necessary to make sure everyone is current and representing correctly. I can't believe the number of ribbons some people have and especially in contrast to other wars and other generations. Be that as it may, we are the ARMED FORCES, not a bunch of John Cena Jarheads or Sgt Slaughters. We are the real deal outside of Nidal Hassan (Muslim Terrorist) and others who walk amongst us pilloring the lives of innocents.
I agree with the General in regard to regalia being more important to unit cohesion. The truth is, outside the military families and friends there are those who could give a rat's ass if we had one gun or one F-35 just as long as they reap a few dollars.
And for the posers out there, here and outside the 0's and 1's, stay classy SM and Veterans, we ARE the good guys. Overall. None perfect but at least we serve this great country and we spit in the eyes of those who call that into question.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
If a Marine has his CAR and is using it as a tool to be "above" someone then their unit probably just did mass awards for it. Or probably took a few pop shots and got it. A ribbon stack is nothing but metal and cloth on one pin to put on your uniform. Its sad to say but i do not take anyones stack seriously because ive seen Officers get written up and it looks good on paper when really it was almost friendly fire. Ive seen CAR's get passed out and NAM's like candy. My first squad i ever had never seen combat and i bet at least 3 of them can take a squadleader spot over combat veterans. Sure war gives you experience but it does not change who you are or how well you fight. The only time ive ever even mentioned my time in iraq or afghanistan or anything i did in combat to my squad is when related to a class i was teaching and i could give them a real world example. Other than that all these Iraq and Afghan vets need to let go of the past. They sound like a middle aged man saying "if couch would have put me in the second half we would have one that game." Its sad to admit but i believe this war took us down a bit because ive had 1 pump afghan vets who thought they did it all and nobody should ever need anything from them. So i took all those corporals and put them on working parties to instill the fact it dont matter how much combat you seen how many stars are on your CAR or what youve done in the Marine Corps your still a boot to somebody. I say the people who have their CAR's and live through them is the problem. Im proud of my CAR because i know i earned it. I know what i had to live through to get some 3 dollar colorful peice of cloth added to my uniform. I will never hold it above anyones head because its a personal award. It means something to me. and if anyone thinks having a CAR makes them a better Marine then let me impose you with a question. Does having a purple heart make you less of a Marine since you let the enemy get the upper hand on you? i knew a gunny that had 2 purple hearts and never put one on his uniform because he was embarassed by them. he said they were the enemies ribbons. Its our responsibility (the ones who have experienced combat) to insure that we are heading into the right step on teaching the guys what they need to know to be prepared and be ready. Because guess what if your sitting there with a CAR on your chest and you feel all big and mighty like your above anything remember the Marines without CAR's will still deploy with you peacetime or combat.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Here's an honest answer... From a POG with a CAR. There will always be the few who are still immature enough to put weight on the ribbon, that will never change. The bigger problem is the fact that we have MSgt, GySgt, SSgt, Sgt, and Cpl that are letting this affect them on a personal and professional level. Their leadership skills and overall sheer amount of experience can and will always dictate how Marines respond to them. The fact that this is a discussion does nothing more than make those 10% think they are getting one up on those senior ranks. I have a CAR and have many friends who do as well. None of us hold ourselves above anyone at any rank, we understand that we were presented with a unique opportunity and got an award for it... Nothing else. This is what a real combat veteran understands.
Not to mention the only people who say stupid stuff like that either got blanketed by their company or platoon, or don't have the ribbon themselves. I mean come on people this is a ridiculous thing to be worked up about
Not to mention the only people who say stupid stuff like that either got blanketed by their company or platoon, or don't have the ribbon themselves. I mean come on people this is a ridiculous thing to be worked up about
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
I don't think that is necessarily that one individual doesn't have it that's the issue. I felt similarly when CSM Chandler was appointed as the Sergeant Major of the Army. I didn't care that he had only deployed one after all these years at war, but I didn't think choosing him made sense because there had to have been many CSM's with more experience with the situations most Soldiers have dealt with, especially multiple tours, that could have been selected from. This may be biased because I spent 38 months in the middle east after the tours before my ninth year mark. I didn't seek to deploy over and over again, we were inn two surges and everyone in the Army went. So a decade into two wars to see someone nominated to the highest position enlisted can achieve with only one tour bothered me. I don't care that he didn't have valor devices or an expert infantryman badge, I cared that in a time of war we were being led by someone who had missed most of it.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
When you figure out how this is to change, let me know. If you don't have a CAR and are a woman also, you are on a completely lower level of respect. We contribute in so many ways, yet are crapped upon and treated like second class members.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google