Posted on Jan 6, 2014
No Hat, No Salute Areas...suggestion, mandatory, order, convenience? Which is it?
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OK I almost got into it today but I exercised great restraint (you'd all be proud). Im in a course right now at a building where there apparently is a no hat, salute zone right before the entrance in a breeze way.<div>Now there is a sign that is about 12x12 inches 1 ft off the ground behind a bush that says this, and that is all it says. That is not the entrance I came in, but it is the exit (where there is no sign posted). </div><div>So Im walking out the door on the way to my car. I put my hat on. There's about 10 soldiers in PT's walking by me on the way in with their caps on. Behind them is an SFC Drill. Mind you there's a sever cold front coming in and the wind is blowing 20+mph with a windchill of about 19 right now.</div><div>He says to me "hey sergeant, this is a no hat no salute zone." I'm range walking because I'm freezing and I say "ok, thank you." And continue to move out briskly. (not removing my hat)</div><div>Then from about 20 meters away he enters knife hand mode. "HEY SGT! THATS NOT A SUGGESTION, THATS AN ORDER" Now normally I engage in a conversation at this point but because I was freezing I took off the hat walked 5 more steps and put it on when I was back in real Army zone.</div><div>So my question is, in these areas is this an order? I thought that these areas existed because they are high traffic areas where many officers are in and out and don't need to be saluting 300 times in and out of the building. More of a convince thing. I had no idea this was MANDATORY and that I MUST remove my head gear in these areas.</div><div>So what's the deal?</div>
NCOES
Saluting
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 37
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No covers? No salutes? Madness, utter and complete madness....if we want to avoid saluting, we have to go around the building in the other direction from the officers like everybody else....A place where you don't have to salute....That's gold!
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TSgt Jevon Fulton
I don't know how the Army or other services work but in the Air Force a "no hat" "no salute" area are normally used for safety reasons and not for "high traffic of officers in the area". Imagine being on an air field and your cover flies off your head while you trying to chase it down on a flight line area. Imagine that same cover you were unable to retrieve flying into an intake of a F22 or B2 bomber and the engine was damaged. imagine trying to render a salute in these areas (distracted)and you were accidentally sucked into one of these intakes! Get the picture? Yes regulations cover when and when not to salute but the base commander can implement "no hat" "no salute" areas and it's not a suggestion.
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SSG Burns, the reason you are having such a hard time rationalizing this or finding an answer is because it is "make believe" - there is no such thing.<div><br></div><div>I must have missed the part in the AR that explains that one of times I'm not required to salute is in a "no hat, no salute area". And no, this would not be "adding to the regulation", you would be "taking away" because the regulation explicitly covers when not to salute.</div><div><br></div><div>Additionally, what guides me to believe that I must interpret random signs as orders to obey?</div><div><br></div><div>As MCPO Young stated - this is complete and utter madness.</div><div><br></div><div>In fact, this was probably one of the first topics on the Duffel Blog.</div>
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LTC (Join to see)
I have a motorpool in my AO. I have designated it a No Hat No Salute area. This work very well for me. It is within a chain link fence on a concrete pad with lots of vehicles backing up and Soldiers using hand and arm signals. When I was deployed to AFG the same thing help true for the COIN Training Center in Kabul. We had alot of Flag Officers attend every class and they had no issue with it.. This included the 2 US 4 Stars who came and spoke at the class.
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PO3 Christopher Jonah Nelson
CSM Mike Maynard No salute zones being optional I can see, but occasionally no-cover zones are mandatory, like many locations on an airbase, where a cover could potentially be sucked in to an intake and damage or destroy an aircraft's engine.
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CSM Mike Maynard
PO3 Christopher Jonah Nelson - Yeah, this thread wasn't really referencing a logical/safety reason for a no cover area, it was discussing the places where these zones have been designated for "convenience".
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SFC Derrick Hardison
CSM Maynard, I totally agree with you on this subject. If they want Soldiers to abide by this then they need to update the regulations to make everything legal so there is no gray area. This is the kind of thing that can get people into pissing matches for no good reason and potentially cause a Soldier to be hemmed up over bullshit. Another thing that should be addressed is designated parking areas. I was in an MP battalion and was informed that there is no legal reason for designated parking spaces. I know this is a privilege to have a spot because of rank and position, but if someone takes your spot, there is really nothing you can do besides be pissed. Regulations should be updated to cover any and all gray areas because Soldiers "will" challenge you on certain things if its not in writing
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SSG Burns, you've got my curiosity with this one. We know the regulations covering saluting and I've done a ton of searching on the matter and other than individual post policies giving this authority to the post commander as SSG Rodriguez pointed out, I can find no doctrine about this. I work in the Pentagon, our central courtyard is the largest no hat, no salute area in the world. I vow to get to the bottom of this. If the SecDef says "Because I say so" that counts, right?
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SSG Robert Burns
There it is! So the question (to be clear) is, is it MANDATORY to take off the hat. Or is it, you don't HAVE to wear the hat if you don't want to.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
SSG Burns: While I am but a lowly SGT, it has been my understanding that "No hat, No Salute" zones do not convey the mandate to remove headgear, only that one is not required to wear head covering in said zones of "madness."
Also, if the SFC Drill Sergeant was trying to order you to remove your headgear, he was technically wrong. NCOs do not issue orders, we issue directives. Officers issue orders. If he was implying that the "no Hat, No Salute" sign was a written order from an Officer in a Post Command billet, his directive might have some merit to it.
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SFC John Brooks
Still looking for something concrete, but in the case of the Pentagon, the area is designated under the authority of the installation commander or in our case the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Still no clear guidance on whether it is mandatory or optional in the case of the hat. The no salute portion isn't really "optional" in that it would defeat the purpose of the salute being rendered as an honor when it would be a huge hindrance to moving about the area for all involved.
I'm not finished with this crusade yet, just searching for the right resources to pose the question to. The Pentagon no hat/no salute area is even covered in the tours. I could jump in with a tour group and ask the question but I'm not sure what the poor kid leading the tour at the time would do when confronted with it.
I'm not finished with this crusade yet, just searching for the right resources to pose the question to. The Pentagon no hat/no salute area is even covered in the tours. I could jump in with a tour group and ask the question but I'm not sure what the poor kid leading the tour at the time would do when confronted with it.
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SSG Robert Burns
SSG Brooks, I think you should just hit up the Secretary of Defense on outlook for clarity.
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I would believe it is not an order. Just letting everyone know it is a high officer traffic area and that constant saluting isn't necessary.
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The Air Force in Germany in the 80s was kind of relaxed and this despite all of the Headquarters like NATO, USAFE, the fighter wings, etc. But rather than be lax myself I regarded the honor that respect confers on everyone.
I will say this, I helped the Army out when it was cold. If the temperatures and wind chills were close, I would help out my infantry friends. I think sometimes people are so callous that they fail to be humane. I was respected by the NCOs and officers because I listen and then act appropriately.
I would have probably bit my tongue too, and I think you showed maturity and leadership by not escalating this event. Thanks for your service and dedication!!!
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I think maybe you should understand why there is a "no hat, no salute" area at the SSI to begin with. I encountered the same thing when I was at the AMEDD Center & School at Fort Sam Houston. The bottom line is that like the AMEDDC&S, the SSI is a place that teaches junior officers attending AG and Finance Basic Officer Leadership Course (BOLC) and Captain's Career Course , and is not just the building that houses the Recruiting & Retention School. Reminder: According to Customs and Courtesies, not only is an enlisted servicemember of ANY branch required to render a salute when covered and outdoors but the Officer receiving the salute is required to return it!! The "No Hat, No Salute" policy keeps you from having to render a salute to every one of the hundreds of Officers also housed in that building as they traffic in and out of the SSI just like you do. NOW, that being said, you mention rushing briskly toward your car, if you saw an officer and they saw you and you were not under cover and out of range would you a) pick up the pace to avoid saluting or b) do what you are supposed to do and render the appropriate Customs and Courtesies because we are NCOs and we are supposed to enforce standards? So if the policy is "no hat no salute" it is: a) of benefit to you, b) of benefit to the student officers AND c) a policy, that we as NCOs should not gripe about complying with! It isn't even a hard right over and easy wrong Sergeant, it's just an easy right, HOOAH?! Oh and BTW PS Drill Sergeants and MPs who are wearing their pistol belts are considered "under arms" and not required to remove their covers indoors and under cover. Hope this helped.
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SSG Robert Burns
So I guess you missed the last paragraph of my question where I quite clearly understand the "reason" for the zones. I spent 6 years at Ft. Sam and am VERY familiar with the no hat no salute zone policy. And if you go to AMEDD C&S and walk up those stairs you will see half the people with hats on. Why? Because there it simply means it is not a requirement to wear your hat or salute. It does not mean it is MANDATORY you remove your hat.
I have no idea why you brought up the briskly moving out to my car. It was below freezing and the wind was over 30mph. That why I was moving fast. Why would I not salute an officer just because I am walking fast?
It is not of a benefit to me to not wear my hat when it's below freezing. As my visit to sick call yesterday clearly implies. I could care less if I have to salute a bunch of officers and don't consider it a benefit not to render proper customs and courtesies and you so pointed out.
Instructions should be clear and concise. It is not griping to seek clarity, which as you can see by this thread, no one can say for sure what the truth is. It couldn't be any unclearer.
I spoke to the Commandant yesterday. He said it's a sign from a long time ago, and all he knows about it is what was told to him about it by the one he replaced. It's one of those "because we've always done it that way" things.
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Got it. The policy is implemented by the MACOM:
AR 600-25, 1-4 states:
b. Commanders of all major Army commands (MACOMs) will —
(1) Carefully review saluting policies for their installations. Commanders may develop and publish modified saluting policies for congested, high-density, or student living areas where saluting would be highly repetitious or otherwise infeasible.
So it will differ depending on the command implementing the policy.
AR 600-25, 1-4 states:
b. Commanders of all major Army commands (MACOMs) will —
(1) Carefully review saluting policies for their installations. Commanders may develop and publish modified saluting policies for congested, high-density, or student living areas where saluting would be highly repetitious or otherwise infeasible.
So it will differ depending on the command implementing the policy.
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SSG Robert Burns
What I think is ironic is it's a rule to break a rule, but you better not break that broken rule?
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SFC John Brooks
At least it is clarified in the regulation that such areas do exist and why. The only thing that can be done about the ambiguity of the policy is to ask the commander who implemented it to clarify.
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SSG Robert Burns
Exactly. The issue here is it was so long ago when this was instituted that new Commander apparently just let it be kinda like a "all policies and procedures remain in affect."
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He was trying to flex his drill muscles. Not sure if this answers your question. I Google a little bit and found a Pamphlet No 600-1 Personnel; specific for FT Sam Houston, it states that Installation Commander is the approval authority for no hat/no salute areas. I think that you were right. I hope this helps.<div><br></div><div>On AR 600-25 I only found this about saluting:</div><div> i. Salutes are not required to be rendered or returned when the senior or subordinate, or both are—</div><div>(1) In civilian attire.</div><div>(2) Engaged in routine work if the salute would interfere.</div><div>(3) Carrying articles with both hands so occupied as to make saluting impracticable.</div><div>(4) Working as a member of a detail, or engaged in sports or social functions where saluting would present a safety</div><div>hazard.</div><div>(5) In public places such as theaters, churches, and in public conveyances.</div><div>(6) In the ranks of a formation.</div><div>1–6. Courtesies to the national flag and the national anthem of the United States <div><br></div></div>
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There are situations where these signs and practices apply in a more logical way. Most individuals who have worked on or visited an active flightline will understand.
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