Posted on Jun 4, 2015
SGT Ronnie Warford
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So I was speaking with an NCO from another unit and he was telling me about how the army doesn't work like it use to and "back then" if you messed up you got dropped and then that was that. Then he said he didn't understand why the Army is going to the paperwork aspect of counseling more when as a soldier he would rather get smoked. He also said the Army is getting softer and smarter. Do you feel this is true? I personally believe the Army is turning towards a direction that will benefit service members after they leave the service. Please let me know your opinions!
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Responses: 14
SSG (ret) William Martin
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I do not agree with "dropping" or "smoking" a Soldier right off the bat and in fact, I don't even do that unless its the last result which resulted from a SM not listening to me because they chose not to. We are leaving in a learning environment in which we must investigate, evaluate, ask questions and determine a plan and execute that plan and evaluate again. How can we do anything if we say, "oh PVT Snuffy was late again so I will just smoke the living dog crap out of him and I expect that will fix everything". How about we ask PVT Snuffy why is he late? It might be a serious situation that awaits for him to come home to every night. As counselors, we counsel; we find out the problem and we fix it.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
COL Mikel J. Burroughs
>1 y
SSG William Martin I don't disagree with that approach at all. I hope you didn't get the impression that everyone in the Army should be dropped, because of my reply. There is a time and a place for everything! We shouldn't throw everything out in today's Army. Again, just an opinion!
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SGT Richard H.
SGT Richard H.
>1 y
What's wrong with doing both? Investigate, Discipline, Plan, Solve.
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CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
>1 y
Soldiers must be trained to respond/move/do, not to question! Y'all have a problem to solve! My sons, now in their 50s, respond when dad says do it!

If you need to explain "WHY"; I fell sorry for you!
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SPC Signals Intelligence Analyst
SPC (Join to see)
>1 y
I have been smoked for asking the question "why". When I asked it, it wasnt because I disagreed or didn't want to do what I was told. I asked because I wanted to know for next time so I could just do it on my own. Having a soldier understand what they are doing is a good thing, unless you want a leader standing over their shoulder at all times.
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SFC Operations Nco
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In the line units I have served in, we skull drug Joe if he messed up...but the punishment fit the crime. A smart remark would probably get you 50; miss first formation and the pain won't stop until COB.

Right now I am serving in a TRADOC unit, and now we are on a short leash.
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SSG Training Sergeant
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y
Yeah, TRADOC has a very short leash - and don't forget to ensure that they get a minimum of 8 hours of sleep at night.
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1SG Military Police
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The Army doesn't work like it used to and it IS getting softer, mainly because NCOs are not enforcing the standard. The "new" Army soldiers are not as resilient as those in the past (I recently had to implement a sleep plan for a "hard charging" SSG while in the field. While this was the right thing to do, I'm twice his age and he just can't keep up with the optemo...not an isolated instance and not restricted to NCOs). Excuses and questions have become the new normal.
Smarter...? Yes and No. The average Soldier is far smarter than the average Soldier 20 years ago. However, the PCCs that those NCOs were taught in the 90s they can still do automatically with their eyes closed...the "new" Amy version has to be remediated on this basic skill because they can't retain it.
Your closing statement is a disturbing perception that I see more and more...that the Army is somehow supposed to be in the business of training you to be successful in a civilian skill once you leave the military. The Army's primary task is to close with and destroy the enemy in order to protect our nation...anything you pick up along the way that assists you when you complete your term of service is a bonus, not an entitlement.
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SGT Richard H.
SGT Richard H.
>1 y
I don't think they are any smarter than 20 years ago...at least not in the IQ sense of the word...but it does sound like they are much better at being "barracks lawyers".
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1LT William Clardy
1LT William Clardy
>1 y
1SG (Join to see), I got smoked on RP when I went beyond reminding folks that the military services do not exist to benefit the servicemembers to arguing that, ultimately, a military leader must be able to consider his (or her) troops to be expendable.
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1SG Military Police
1SG (Join to see)
>1 y
1LT William Clardy , fortunately it takes a GO to take my rank so I'm all about mission accomplishment and Soldier care no matter whose feelings get bruised. One of my best company commanders had a valuable saying, "never do anything your rank & your paycheck can't handle." We put out Hurt Feeling Reports in the Admin area at my last BCT...interestingly, we didn't have any takers.
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Maj Joan Marine
Maj Joan Marine
3 y
1SG (Join to see) - We called that a TS punchcard...LOL!
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Old corrective training vs the New corrective training! What are your thoughts?
1SG Civil Affairs Specialist
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I'm into stuff that works - and frankly that is different for every Soldier.
My approach is much more custom. I like to come up with something new every time; keep the men guessing. You'd be surprised how a "potpourri" approach is very effective at deterring low-level jackassery that used to get you some push-ups or flutter kicks. NOBODY wants to be on the receiving end of these. Some of these sessions are legendary and have taken on a life of their own.
I smile every time I hear one of these tales told as the E-4 mafia polices itself with threats of a Badger 7 "invented correction".

The old stand-bys are still in my repertoire, but creativity has bought me all sorts of credibility.
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MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
>1 y
I had 3 great First Sergeants when I was a Co Cdr and you and I would have gotten along just wunderbar 1SG (Join to see)!
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1LT William Clardy
1LT William Clardy
3 y
My sons understand your approach very well, 1SG (Join to see).
My eldest occasionally retells the story of when he proactively asked what the punishment would be for doing "X" and my response was "I don't know, but I promise it will be something which will make you regret doing X." He swears that's a promise I always managed to keep.
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CPT J2 X
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The army is changing and the bottom line is leaders need to get with the program. Yes, back then being "smoked" was the desired punishment of choice but also a lot of leaders abused it and a lot of time it didn't really fixed the issue. Now, leaders have to actually engage the subordinate in a formal manner which should let the support know that their actions were wrong and how to go about and fixing it and the consequences if they don't. As far as the Army getting softer, well I can tell you it's not due to not allowed to "smoke" a subordinate but that's another can of worm which I think has to do more with discipline.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
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Edited >1 y ago
What happen to dropping a soldier by an NCO? I've seen it happen on several different occasions!
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MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
>1 y
SGT Ronnie Warford - 5 as in 5 reps is considered hazing? GTF out, seriously? I've only been out since 2009. Guess we ain't in Kansas anymore.
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1SG Military Police
1SG (Join to see)
>1 y
SGT Ronnie Warford I'd like to see that Regulation because I promise you it didn't exist when I was a SGT @ FT Hood MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
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1LT William Clardy
1LT William Clardy
>1 y
I wonder what the "more than 5 push-ups is hazing" crowd would have made of 1SG Chisolm -- at every formation while he was first sergeant of C 1/501 INF, everybody who didn't have air assault wings on got to do at least 10 pushups. We were delighted when he became the acting battalion sergeant major -- shortly thereafter, a battalion run appeared on the training schedule, and acting sergeant major Chisolm challenged every soldier who showed up not ready to run to produce his profile. If the profile said "No running more than 1 mile", the soldier was instructed to run the first mile and then walk back...
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SPC Americo Garcia
SPC Americo Garcia
>1 y
I say be a man or woman who joined to become a team player not some individual who seeks their own desire.
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SSG Training Sergeant
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Smoking is not really effective if the Soldier is a PT stud. Just saying...
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MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
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"Old School" corrective training had a few benefits too. First off you only used it for really light stuff - tardiness, sloppiness and stupidness as I said in another response here. Section and platoons used it as bonding tool, "one goes down, we all go down" and that included the PL/PSG. You dish it out and you let the troops see you can take it - bumps you up a notch or 2 on the respect-o-graph. After that, you or your PSG/1SG chat with the individual, make sure its a one time thing and send them on their way - gets a little one-on-one time and a chance to make sure your soldier is OK.
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MAJ Anne McGee
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I always felt that written counseling was underrated and under utilized. The counseling statement is not just for documenting a screw-up but for documenting success, can show a soldier his progression over time and for NCO'S become a record to base their NCOERs.
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PVT Infantry Recruit
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I sure as hell hope not. Id rather get smoked. Atleast then it benefits me to that im getting physically stronger.
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