Posted on Nov 2, 2016
One of your soldiers fails out of PME. What actions do you take as a leader?
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I am just throwing this out as a vignette. I am curious what kinds of things leaders could do, would do, and should do. At what phase in their career does this become a career ender (BLC, ALC?) [Other branch equivalent professional military education as well]
Again, not an issue for me..just a conversational topic.
Again, not an issue for me..just a conversational topic.
NCOES
PME
Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC)
Leadership
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 21
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As a leader, understanding why the SM failed out regardless of what PME, PT Test or Weapons Q. This would be the first step to helping the SM. Everyone has a bad day, I sure do. Retraining and teaching the SM is being a leader. I do this a lot with my commo section. Talking to them as a group and one on one. A leaders responsibility to me is caring about the SM, not because the Army say I need to because I'm In a leadership position, but actually care. You can only do so much for a SM, I do understand that. And at some point its time to send them on there way. But if your not giving a 100% to the SM, well your wrong.
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Suspended Profile
I was informed that I could not negatively reflect on their NCOER because I had not counseled them to pass the mandatory MOS required course... mind blown
Sgt (Join to see)
Sir, that does seem pretty outrageous. However, at my past school house they drilled it into us that we need to counsel every action/requirement we expect of them. Moreover, remark anything out of the normal expectations the marine displays; good or bad. Seems like someone took a formality a little too seriously.
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I am currently at MP ALC I saw many soldier get sent home for not meeting Height Wright and security clearances.
This is unit level responsibilities and the soldiers failed because their units failed.. proper preparation 30-60-90 look at all requirements check the block on each one. Ensure your soldiers are prepared to complete the course not a maybe or I think I can...
This is unit level responsibilities and the soldiers failed because their units failed.. proper preparation 30-60-90 look at all requirements check the block on each one. Ensure your soldiers are prepared to complete the course not a maybe or I think I can...
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SGM Erik Marquez
SFC Michael Lydon "This is unit level responsibilities and the soldiers failed because their units failed.. proper preparation 30-60-90 look at all requirements check the block on each one. Ensure your soldiers are prepared to complete the course not a maybe or I think I can..."
Yes and No...
I was part of sending more than a few to an almost certain failure at NCOES.. because it was FORCED on the unit.
If the SM "Met" the standard at home station he MUST be permitted to go, even when we felt the company level APFT graders may have not had the most rigid standards and the SM passed at the minimum points possible,
When the tape test had to be done four times to get the SM to pass....and we knew a cheeseburger and soda on the flight to school was going to put them over. We were told in no uncertain terms by big army, as in the SMA and chief of staff, if the unit says they meet the prereqs, the SM attends as scheduled. Even when the unit did it right, , great standards done well,,,if the SM passed, even by a hair, first time ever....they passed, and off to school they went, returning in 72 hours as a failed APFT or Height and weight. Even when the SM had only the slimmest chance of passing academically, due to ESL, or reading comprehension issues.. off they went, only to return as an academic failure.
I agree SFC Michael Lydon many times the SMs failure to gain entrance at NCOES is a failure at the unit level, but take it for whats its worth, from the guy that ran a Div school program, was a company 1SG....it is not always, not even often the units failure..but a system set for them to failure,,by design,,..in that, it is a personal responsibility to be prepared for NCOES..no one is tricked into going, no one is surprised that in the next year they are going to get orders to attend.
And truthfully, look at it from the SMA's point.. The overall numbers need to be cut, the force downsized...what better SM to show the door, than one unwilling or able to prepare themselves for the easiest day of PT they should ever do, or not be overweight.
Yes and No...
I was part of sending more than a few to an almost certain failure at NCOES.. because it was FORCED on the unit.
If the SM "Met" the standard at home station he MUST be permitted to go, even when we felt the company level APFT graders may have not had the most rigid standards and the SM passed at the minimum points possible,
When the tape test had to be done four times to get the SM to pass....and we knew a cheeseburger and soda on the flight to school was going to put them over. We were told in no uncertain terms by big army, as in the SMA and chief of staff, if the unit says they meet the prereqs, the SM attends as scheduled. Even when the unit did it right, , great standards done well,,,if the SM passed, even by a hair, first time ever....they passed, and off to school they went, returning in 72 hours as a failed APFT or Height and weight. Even when the SM had only the slimmest chance of passing academically, due to ESL, or reading comprehension issues.. off they went, only to return as an academic failure.
I agree SFC Michael Lydon many times the SMs failure to gain entrance at NCOES is a failure at the unit level, but take it for whats its worth, from the guy that ran a Div school program, was a company 1SG....it is not always, not even often the units failure..but a system set for them to failure,,by design,,..in that, it is a personal responsibility to be prepared for NCOES..no one is tricked into going, no one is surprised that in the next year they are going to get orders to attend.
And truthfully, look at it from the SMA's point.. The overall numbers need to be cut, the force downsized...what better SM to show the door, than one unwilling or able to prepare themselves for the easiest day of PT they should ever do, or not be overweight.
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SFC (Join to see)
I have to agree with SGM Marquez if you are a NCO it is your responsibility to pass height and weight, APFT, or anything else the Army may throw at you. Also like he said they force them to go either way. My guess is that they would rather them just fail so they can bar them and get rid of them. Either way after you are promoted to Corporal on up you no longer have an excuse you should always be trying to better yourself and constantly be competing with your peers. The Army is even more competitive than it was a year ago and it will just get tougher for these NCOES.
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I am not going to say depends. From a purely USMC point of view. The fork has been inserted; for an NCO, SNCO, or Officer your EAS is now in stone. No more reenlistment, no more promotion's, you are done. Mandatory negative comment on Fitness Report is identified as an "Adverse Fitness Report". I would say someone has a zero point zero probability of recovering from this event. Only path to redemption would be if you were dropped due to a medical issue. If that was the case you will be allowed to attend the complete course over once you are medically cleared. This is a one and done deal for us. Semper Fi.
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MSgt (Join to see)
Oorah MGySgt! I was looking through the comments and waiting to see if I'd come across a Marine's comment. This would be the nail in the coffin. Especially with todays competitiveness and requirements.
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The way the Army is going today. We want to keep only the very best. If you failed your PME there are plenty of other folks that will be able to pass and to keep the ball running.
I will not dismiss the Soldiers. I would continue to mentor, coach and teach.
I will advice you to never put your career were someone else will make a decision on it. Plain and simple!!
I will not dismiss the Soldiers. I would continue to mentor, coach and teach.
I will advice you to never put your career were someone else will make a decision on it. Plain and simple!!
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Look at it like you would any other issue.
YOU'RE the leader. First ask yourself:
1) "Did I set them up for failure?" as in: Did I send someone who wasn't ready? Did I not give them the tools needed to accomplish the course? Did I know they were going to fail in advance? In essence, was this a "Failure to supervise" issue as opposed to a failure on their part (learning experience).
2) "Were there external situations that created the situation?" This is more complex than above, as it could be financial, morale based, or anything in between. Investigate and walk through the issue with the troop.
Based on the above, the type of "counselling" can be dramatically different. It can go from "I'm sorry" to "What the hell happened?"
YOU'RE the leader. First ask yourself:
1) "Did I set them up for failure?" as in: Did I send someone who wasn't ready? Did I not give them the tools needed to accomplish the course? Did I know they were going to fail in advance? In essence, was this a "Failure to supervise" issue as opposed to a failure on their part (learning experience).
2) "Were there external situations that created the situation?" This is more complex than above, as it could be financial, morale based, or anything in between. Investigate and walk through the issue with the troop.
Based on the above, the type of "counselling" can be dramatically different. It can go from "I'm sorry" to "What the hell happened?"
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I think a related and just as important question is, why is PME/NCOES so easy failure's perceived to be career ending? NCOES should be sufficiently challenging that an attrition rate's to be expected and there's no shame to make another attempt. My experience with NCOES is that if you learned much, you shouldn't have been there. As it is, if you feel graduating our PME courses is an accomplishment, you're mistaken, and no one's impressed because completion's a given.
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I once had an E5 fail BLC 7 times! The Soldier was counseled and I personally worked with him on his weak areas but every time he went he failed tests due to concentration issues. He said he just didn't test well but when I went over the topics with him he was able to answer them. He was a good guy and a decent Soldier but I submitted him for a reduction board after the 3rd failure. But the BN denied it and said keep on sending him until he passes.
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WO1 (Join to see)
Was this during your active time or after you transitioned into the reserve? 7 times is quite outrageous.
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CPT (Join to see)
7 is outrageous. But having Soldiers who can't test (under pressure) or have a learning disability like Dyslexia is not uncommon.
I had a senior NCO with a known issue of not testing well, but would not go or agree to be diagnosed for it. Luckily he passed all his PME by the smallest of margins.
I had a senior NCO with a known issue of not testing well, but would not go or agree to be diagnosed for it. Luckily he passed all his PME by the smallest of margins.
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