Posted on Mar 9, 2015
Planet Fitness, Transgenders, and changes in Army Policy
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Let's start this off with a quote from our Constitution that we have sworn to uphold and defend:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause
Many of you have likely heard the story in the news about a woman being kicked out of Planet Fitness for being judgmental due to a transgender woman (pre-OP) was using the female locker room.
Davenport, a transgender activist, states in the article that the female in question had a legitimate argument as did the transgender woman. She also suggested that having individual changing rooms would go a long way to rectifying this issue, and also hopefully to cut down on possible sexual assaults from males attempting to abuse this situation.
As someone who is Libertarian minded I want all people to be treated equally and I see an unequal situation being portrayed here. If Planet Fitness has in their established policy that anyone should be respected for their transgender identity, then they have a requirement to make those people feel welcome, and also those members who may not accept it.
I have seen the arguments on each side that say things in the realm of "This tranny shit is unnatural" and "This person was born a man and is a man period" as well as "This is where things are going and people just need to tolerate it or get the hell out".
Neither of these approaches is right in my opinion and we should be trying to find methods that work with all peoples and all views, but intolerance breeds more intolerance. This is obviously an issue that will be brought forth within the military, whether for the good or ill of readiness or the mission. How do we deal with this properly?
http://www.wnem.com/story/28278233/planet-fitness-drops-member-after-gender-identity-complaint
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause
Many of you have likely heard the story in the news about a woman being kicked out of Planet Fitness for being judgmental due to a transgender woman (pre-OP) was using the female locker room.
Davenport, a transgender activist, states in the article that the female in question had a legitimate argument as did the transgender woman. She also suggested that having individual changing rooms would go a long way to rectifying this issue, and also hopefully to cut down on possible sexual assaults from males attempting to abuse this situation.
As someone who is Libertarian minded I want all people to be treated equally and I see an unequal situation being portrayed here. If Planet Fitness has in their established policy that anyone should be respected for their transgender identity, then they have a requirement to make those people feel welcome, and also those members who may not accept it.
I have seen the arguments on each side that say things in the realm of "This tranny shit is unnatural" and "This person was born a man and is a man period" as well as "This is where things are going and people just need to tolerate it or get the hell out".
Neither of these approaches is right in my opinion and we should be trying to find methods that work with all peoples and all views, but intolerance breeds more intolerance. This is obviously an issue that will be brought forth within the military, whether for the good or ill of readiness or the mission. How do we deal with this properly?
http://www.wnem.com/story/28278233/planet-fitness-drops-member-after-gender-identity-complaint
Posted in these groups: 
Readiness
Transgender
Readiness Transgender
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 40
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I think it's only reasonable:
Male parts- Men's locker room
Female parts- Women's locker room
Feel uncomfortable undressing in front of other people with similar parts? Use a damn stall.
Planet Fitness can do what they want. If they want to provide a separate area for pre-ops, kudos. In my opinion, it would be a token gesture demonstrating their "tolerance".
"Planet Fitness is committed to creating a non-intimidating, welcoming environment for our members. Our gender identity non-discrimination policy states that members and guests may use all gym facilities based on their sincere self-reported gender identity."
Sincere, huh? Most Americans can't even distinguish between the words "sex" and "gender" yet. How in the world would this fit into a business plan without sounding ridiculous?
It can't.
Male parts- Men's locker room
Female parts- Women's locker room
Feel uncomfortable undressing in front of other people with similar parts? Use a damn stall.
Planet Fitness can do what they want. If they want to provide a separate area for pre-ops, kudos. In my opinion, it would be a token gesture demonstrating their "tolerance".
"Planet Fitness is committed to creating a non-intimidating, welcoming environment for our members. Our gender identity non-discrimination policy states that members and guests may use all gym facilities based on their sincere self-reported gender identity."
Sincere, huh? Most Americans can't even distinguish between the words "sex" and "gender" yet. How in the world would this fit into a business plan without sounding ridiculous?
It can't.
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SGT (Join to see)
Sex and Gender are two different things. Your sex should determine what bathroom you use!
If the Army adopts this view Im identifying as a dog, so I can just pee and poo outside!
If the Army adopts this view Im identifying as a dog, so I can just pee and poo outside!
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SSgt (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) You are totally right about the gender locker issue, otherwise there is chaos. lol
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MAJ (Join to see)
http://montrealgazette.com/life/transmen-in-womens-bathrooms-get-used-to-it
Here is an article that highlights what it really looks like when a transgender uses their "sex" bathroom. I'd rather this "dude" use the men's' room. Moreover, when it comes to locker rooms I don't spend my time looking at others genitalia. While deployed, I spent time on French FOBs, and there the bathrooms were coed.
Here is an article that highlights what it really looks like when a transgender uses their "sex" bathroom. I'd rather this "dude" use the men's' room. Moreover, when it comes to locker rooms I don't spend my time looking at others genitalia. While deployed, I spent time on French FOBs, and there the bathrooms were coed.
Trans men in women's bathrooms: Get used to it?
Is the message starting to sink in to the general population? If not, here's a recap: Women in Canada and parts of the United States -- Kentucky, Florida, Minnesota, Texas -- better get used to hav...
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I'm a 4 star general trapped in a SFC body. Accommodate me.
The world is upside down right now. I’m shocked how something so simple is being debated over.
The world is upside down right now. I’m shocked how something so simple is being debated over.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
LTJG (Servicemember)
When did I say it was right in my opinion? I had said "Neither of these approaches is right in my opinion and we should be trying to find methods that work with all peoples and all views, but intolerance breeds more intolerance."
This is also about trying to find a solution, something you may run into soon as a leader and have to deal with.
When did I say it was right in my opinion? I had said "Neither of these approaches is right in my opinion and we should be trying to find methods that work with all peoples and all views, but intolerance breeds more intolerance."
This is also about trying to find a solution, something you may run into soon as a leader and have to deal with.
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SFC (Join to see)
CPT Zachary Brooks, The system we had worked. It’s not possible to make everyone happy. Some people just need to play with the hand life deals them. Tolerance, intolerance and offended are three words that are bringing down our society. We need to quit being a bunch of feminized, overly offended pussies. Before I get called out, I’m not calling you a pussy. Society as a whole has become pussified.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
SFC (Join to see)
Must say I agree. I do not enjoy dealing with the fall back of politicians trying to get votes, but it is something we must do as leaders.
Must say I agree. I do not enjoy dealing with the fall back of politicians trying to get votes, but it is something we must do as leaders.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Was it right to accommodate black service members? Changes had to be made. What is right to accommodate women? Changes had to be made. Was it right to accommodate gays? Changes had to be made. Just because change is hard doesn't mean we try to avoid it. We are the best military in the world. We are the best country in the world. We should act like it. Soldiers are the most important thing we have, and I as a leader support changes that make life better for them. I want them to be honest with me about their life and their families. I want them to feel they can trust me and that I will do what is right for them. I don't pretend to understand everyone else. The only thing I can control is how I respond. I choose to be accepting and accommodating.
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I know I am getting old. I have a problem with just being able to say I identify as a woman and therefore I am entitled to use the women's facilities. Just saying I am a (anything) does not make me one.
That said, if a person does feel so much like he/she is actually a she/he and goes through the process of actually changing his/her gender I think the resulting person should then be considered the new gender. Until then the use of the opposite facility is , to me, a distinct invasion of the privacy of the other people using the facility.
So, hence forth I am going identify as a millionaire and I expect you all to treat me as such.
That said, if a person does feel so much like he/she is actually a she/he and goes through the process of actually changing his/her gender I think the resulting person should then be considered the new gender. Until then the use of the opposite facility is , to me, a distinct invasion of the privacy of the other people using the facility.
So, hence forth I am going identify as a millionaire and I expect you all to treat me as such.
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SGT Rob Langford
Everyone has a right to believe or practice whatever they want. However when it interferes with someone's liberty or dignity it's wrong or public decency it's wrong. A dude in a dress is no more a woman than a woman dressed up like a man a man. Simple if you have male parts go to the men's room same thing with ladies go to the ladies room. I am so sick of these people forcing their agenda and identity crisis down everyone's throat now they are trying to invade the restroom.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Most transgendered individuals do go through the process of changing by taking hormones and adjusting their appearance to match what they perceive is their true identity. It is worth researching. I did, because at first I didn't really understand much about it. For a person to choose to change their entire identity causes them to lose a lot of the functionality of their sex organ. So if they switch from female to male, it'll look right, but it won't work right in all aspects. Just imagine how difficult of a decision that must be for a human being.
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Men are men, women are women, it is a matter of genetics. Removing and replacing parts or enhacing others does not change that fact. That is the operating reality. Who you think you are or feel you are in not relevent when compared to who you actually are.
As for Planet Fitness, if they had an ounce of decency, and clearly they do not, they would have a mens and womens locker room and an "other" that has private showers or dressing areas so the confused humans can use it without encroaching on the 99.9% of the rest of the population.
I would not want my wife/daughter in a locker room with a man, who thinks he is a woman but has mans equipment roaming around in it clothed or naked. It doesn't take much imagination to see how sexual predators could use that policy to go after women does it?
They are putting women at risk by allowing men to roam the women's locker room in the name of not being judgmental. The first woman that gets sexually assaulted by some guy acting like he is transwhatevered will likley shut their doors. The lawsuit will bury them.
As for Planet Fitness, if they had an ounce of decency, and clearly they do not, they would have a mens and womens locker room and an "other" that has private showers or dressing areas so the confused humans can use it without encroaching on the 99.9% of the rest of the population.
I would not want my wife/daughter in a locker room with a man, who thinks he is a woman but has mans equipment roaming around in it clothed or naked. It doesn't take much imagination to see how sexual predators could use that policy to go after women does it?
They are putting women at risk by allowing men to roam the women's locker room in the name of not being judgmental. The first woman that gets sexually assaulted by some guy acting like he is transwhatevered will likley shut their doors. The lawsuit will bury them.
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Cpl Jeff N.
SrA (Join to see). I define it as the genetic code and equipment you were born with. Gender identity is some loosey goosey term that talks about how people feel (I think I am a woman or I feel like I am a man).
I think it is simple. You go in the locker room for the external equipment you have. Once you have completed all of the surgery then you can go into the locker room of the new/revised physical gender you possess. If businesses like Planet Fitness are going to cater to these folks then they should provide a 3rd locker room with private accomodation for people part of the way through the process. Why is that an unrealistic solution?
I think it is simple. You go in the locker room for the external equipment you have. Once you have completed all of the surgery then you can go into the locker room of the new/revised physical gender you possess. If businesses like Planet Fitness are going to cater to these folks then they should provide a 3rd locker room with private accomodation for people part of the way through the process. Why is that an unrealistic solution?
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SrA (Join to see)
Cpl Jeff Neely. So by your definition of gender, even surgery can't change it. So you stipulation that the transgendered person needs to have all the surgery to go into the room they feel identifies them, means nothing. By your definition they are still the intensity they were born with.
What if someone has only had one surgery? Such as in the example I provided. If a woman who has had a breast augmentation but still has a penis which room would that person go into? Go in the men's locker room and be oogled at for having breasts? Or, if the situation arised, go into the women's locker room and make women uncomfortable for having a penis?
What if someone has only had one surgery? Such as in the example I provided. If a woman who has had a breast augmentation but still has a penis which room would that person go into? Go in the men's locker room and be oogled at for having breasts? Or, if the situation arised, go into the women's locker room and make women uncomfortable for having a penis?
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Maj Rob Drury
CW3 (Join to see) - "It's an automatic assumption that the person is faking TG..."
Anyone claiming to be TG is faking it. It's just that some are deluded and faking it unintentionally.
Anyone claiming to be TG is faking it. It's just that some are deluded and faking it unintentionally.
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Lets just change bathrooms signs to PENIS and VAGINA. Problem solved everyone is happy.
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SPC Jonathan Sellers
The only way to deal with it is to move on to the civilian life and make a private club. That way you can legally discriminate against people who don't live how you want them to. It's called choice of association, and the USA is a free country, but not while you are in uniform.
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SSG (Join to see)
carrY would carry on in this discussion but its becoming a headache due to my tablet not working with RP.
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SGT (Join to see)
CPT Zachary Brooks, transgenders have been serving long before us. I think it's been proven not to be a detriment, Sir.
I think this is another one of those issues regarding standards.
There are quite a few questions that apply here.
I think this is another one of those issues regarding standards.
There are quite a few questions that apply here.
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Capt Jeff S.
Transgender by birth, no problem. Go with whatever the doctors assigned you, and what parts you have remaining. Transgender by choice. Problem. If you are that confused about your gender identity, you need not be in the military. The military is not a social experiment. It has a mission to accomplish and this is a distraction from the mission.
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I think Planet Fitness is wrong. What ever happened to the rights of those of us who are not transgender? The only person who knows what is going on in the brain of any transgender person is that transgender person. So whether or not they honestly identify themselves as being male or female; only they know. How does anyone know a male isn't just claiming to be a transgender female so that they can perv on the ladies in the locker room? Since there really is no way of knowing, we should be erring on the side of the non-transgender females because they have a right not to be perved on by males in their locker room.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
I agree whole heartedly on this one. How do we avoid similar problems on either side if it is decided that the military is to be integrated? This is an issue leaders will have to deal with.
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Maj Rob Drury
CPT Zachary Brooks - Such a good point. Makes an incredibly good case for excluding transgenders.
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Suspended Profile
During World War II, I am sure these same conversations were being held regarding African American service members, as they were throughout the country up to and even after the Civil Rights movement.
Just because you don't understand or like something does not make it illegitimate or make believe.
Trans Genderism is a real issue. Despite people's beliefs in the situation, almost no-one is purely binary on the gender identity scale. We are all analog - that is we fall somewhere on a spectrum. When you add in genetic issues, it gets more confusing.
Take, for example, a man with Kleinfelter's. He has XXY instead of XY on his chromosomes. The extra X creates havoc with him, he has an abundance of Estrogen, is often sterile, and has significant emotional issues. Or, how about the "super female" with XXX. There are myriad such variations, and most go undetected during the life of the person.
This is not to say that all Trans-Gendered people have genetic issues, but as a way to show that there is a spectrum -it's not JUST M or F.
Trans-Gendered people may be attracted to people of their identified (as opposed to birth) gender, or to the opposite gender. Gender Orientation is NOT linked to Gender Identity.
As I stated elsewhere on RP, while I have great understanding and compassion for TG and all people, I am not sure that a pre-op TG person should be able to be in the military. There are just too many things going on. Even after transition, it becomes an issue for things such as hormone maintenance. Although, that's not a super huge issue, as many Cis-gendered people, myself included, are on hormone maintenance due to low counts.
As far as the Planet Fitness case, a Pre-Op TG person is NOT going to be in the locker room of the identified gender for purposes of sexual assault, being a predator, or anything else. Also, keep in mind that there are Gay men in the men's locker room and Lesbians in the women's locker room, whether you know it or not. If someone is attracted to one of their own gender, are they now a predator and a threat to you?
Yes, there are bad apples out there. But, DO NOT automatically presume that someone with a different gender identity or orientation than you is a predator. Most sexual predators are Cis-gendered, straight men. Do we ban them because of this? Of course not...
1LT Sandy Annala PV2 (Join to see)
Just because you don't understand or like something does not make it illegitimate or make believe.
Trans Genderism is a real issue. Despite people's beliefs in the situation, almost no-one is purely binary on the gender identity scale. We are all analog - that is we fall somewhere on a spectrum. When you add in genetic issues, it gets more confusing.
Take, for example, a man with Kleinfelter's. He has XXY instead of XY on his chromosomes. The extra X creates havoc with him, he has an abundance of Estrogen, is often sterile, and has significant emotional issues. Or, how about the "super female" with XXX. There are myriad such variations, and most go undetected during the life of the person.
This is not to say that all Trans-Gendered people have genetic issues, but as a way to show that there is a spectrum -it's not JUST M or F.
Trans-Gendered people may be attracted to people of their identified (as opposed to birth) gender, or to the opposite gender. Gender Orientation is NOT linked to Gender Identity.
As I stated elsewhere on RP, while I have great understanding and compassion for TG and all people, I am not sure that a pre-op TG person should be able to be in the military. There are just too many things going on. Even after transition, it becomes an issue for things such as hormone maintenance. Although, that's not a super huge issue, as many Cis-gendered people, myself included, are on hormone maintenance due to low counts.
As far as the Planet Fitness case, a Pre-Op TG person is NOT going to be in the locker room of the identified gender for purposes of sexual assault, being a predator, or anything else. Also, keep in mind that there are Gay men in the men's locker room and Lesbians in the women's locker room, whether you know it or not. If someone is attracted to one of their own gender, are they now a predator and a threat to you?
Yes, there are bad apples out there. But, DO NOT automatically presume that someone with a different gender identity or orientation than you is a predator. Most sexual predators are Cis-gendered, straight men. Do we ban them because of this? Of course not...
1LT Sandy Annala PV2 (Join to see)
CPT Zachary Brooks
LCDR Jaron Matlow
I have been looking at this from an intelligence perspective of emerging threats. By establishing a policy that makes it ok to use the facilities of your gender of identity it greatly increases the chances that situations such as the above offender will occur. While keeping with a policy of physical parts (physique, genitalia, etc) over gender identity will not increase that risk just to please what ultimately will be approximately <1% of the military population.
Why should we put into place a policy that more readily exposes females with physical genitalia as such to a greater risk of sexual assault (ala the above case) which make up at least 98% of the females in the services, to make the remainder perfectly happy.
Our gender identity is something that we accept and follow, but is not always the same as the physical body, which is more readily identifiable to those around you. When we join the military we give up certain freedoms and due to that I do not see how a TG member serving in the military (and has all the military values) can, in good conscience, not accept the physical aspects determines your facilities rules for the overall betterment and safety of their peers.
If you want everyone to accommodate your specific idiosyncrasies at any costs, especially by increasing risk to those around you, then you are not cut out for the military. I think that might best fit the Army value of Selfless Service.
I have been looking at this from an intelligence perspective of emerging threats. By establishing a policy that makes it ok to use the facilities of your gender of identity it greatly increases the chances that situations such as the above offender will occur. While keeping with a policy of physical parts (physique, genitalia, etc) over gender identity will not increase that risk just to please what ultimately will be approximately <1% of the military population.
Why should we put into place a policy that more readily exposes females with physical genitalia as such to a greater risk of sexual assault (ala the above case) which make up at least 98% of the females in the services, to make the remainder perfectly happy.
Our gender identity is something that we accept and follow, but is not always the same as the physical body, which is more readily identifiable to those around you. When we join the military we give up certain freedoms and due to that I do not see how a TG member serving in the military (and has all the military values) can, in good conscience, not accept the physical aspects determines your facilities rules for the overall betterment and safety of their peers.
If you want everyone to accommodate your specific idiosyncrasies at any costs, especially by increasing risk to those around you, then you are not cut out for the military. I think that might best fit the Army value of Selfless Service.
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Suspended Profile
I have not stated that TG personnel fit the military culture; in fact I've stated the opposite.
This thread started based on an event at a civilian gym. Yes, it was formed to a question of how it applies to the military world.
My purpose in these posts is to try to respond to some of the mania about TG personnel. These same kinds of things, as I've stated, were said about African Americans back in the day, and about Gay personnel.
There is, sadly, no way to keep the troops safe from own force predators, save disbanding the force. But fear about a very remote possibility as opposed to very real world problems isn't, imho, the best expenditure of energy...
This thread started based on an event at a civilian gym. Yes, it was formed to a question of how it applies to the military world.
My purpose in these posts is to try to respond to some of the mania about TG personnel. These same kinds of things, as I've stated, were said about African Americans back in the day, and about Gay personnel.
There is, sadly, no way to keep the troops safe from own force predators, save disbanding the force. But fear about a very remote possibility as opposed to very real world problems isn't, imho, the best expenditure of energy...
MAJ (Join to see)
CPT Zachary B, I find it interesting that all of the comments I have read argue that it is dangerous for a transwoman to use a women's bathroom because "he" will want to sexually assault the women. The transwoman wants to be female. They most often times are sexually aroused by males...because they themselves feel like they are a female. If tomorrow I woke up with a penis, I'd still want to be a woman. I'd still want to use the women' s locker room, and I'd still not have any inclination to sexually assault anyone...much less another woman. What about the transmen? Women who are taking testosterone to become male? How do you feel about them in your locker room?
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Suspended Profile
MAJ (Join to see) thanks for your outstanding insight as a woman. I am far less concerned about a trans woman raping a natural woman. If for no other reason than a technical one - it is essentially impossible to have a working erection when on Estrogen supplementation. It requires a surplus of Testosterone for that to work.
There are a lot of MTF trans women who ARE interested in women (that carries over from being male). Remember that gender identity and gender orientation are not locked together... That being said, again, even if a trans-woman is interested in women, I doubt she'd rape - that's not how women do things, in general. Most trans-women who still have male genitals hate them, and would not think about using them as weapons...
Now, straight men in uniform - that's another story...
There are a lot of MTF trans women who ARE interested in women (that carries over from being male). Remember that gender identity and gender orientation are not locked together... That being said, again, even if a trans-woman is interested in women, I doubt she'd rape - that's not how women do things, in general. Most trans-women who still have male genitals hate them, and would not think about using them as weapons...
Now, straight men in uniform - that's another story...
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The psyche evaluation should weed out all transgenders. If a person becomes a transgender, they should be discharged. Not honorably, not dishonorably, but just discharged. Anything that is such a distraction to recruiting, training, and maintaining a constant state of readiness should be considered unacceptable by military standards.
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Suspended Profile
MSgt Mike Mikulski Yes, the Genesis story says that God made us male and female. But, the Hebrew there is NOT unambiguous.
Instead of reading it as male OR female, a binary condition, what if you read it as "male AND female" a combination. After all, the original Adam was both male AND female, and God separated Adam into a man and a woman.
If you read the text this way, and the Hebrew conjunctive "u" ו means AND. Or is או "o" in Hebrew.
Additionally, the book of Genesis makes it very clear that God is NOT a perfect creator. God regretted creating humanity, hence the flood story.
There are many people who are born with ambiguous gender. Be it the XY, genetically male, who has external female genitalia, as 1LT Sandy Annala wrote about, the XXY Kleinfelter I cited, or the XXX "super female". These sorts of genetic accidents lend credence to the supposition that gender is a spectrum, not a binary situation.
You can choose to disagree or dispute my Biblical reading if you want, but please keep in mind that as an ordained Rabbi, I am a Biblical and Biblical Hebrew scholar...
Instead of reading it as male OR female, a binary condition, what if you read it as "male AND female" a combination. After all, the original Adam was both male AND female, and God separated Adam into a man and a woman.
If you read the text this way, and the Hebrew conjunctive "u" ו means AND. Or is או "o" in Hebrew.
Additionally, the book of Genesis makes it very clear that God is NOT a perfect creator. God regretted creating humanity, hence the flood story.
There are many people who are born with ambiguous gender. Be it the XY, genetically male, who has external female genitalia, as 1LT Sandy Annala wrote about, the XXY Kleinfelter I cited, or the XXX "super female". These sorts of genetic accidents lend credence to the supposition that gender is a spectrum, not a binary situation.
You can choose to disagree or dispute my Biblical reading if you want, but please keep in mind that as an ordained Rabbi, I am a Biblical and Biblical Hebrew scholar...
SPC Jonathan Sellers
Being tolerant and fair to everyone is absurd ideology. Life isn't fair, we don't tolerate people who would do us harm, and the criminal justice system is in place to address bad behavior. Some people in our society approve of spending taxpayer money on accommodating the o.o01% of people who are like this. It is not fair to the rest of us to waste our time on this topic. It is not tolerant to tell people who don't approve of this transgender behavior that we must embrace their choices. It is not fair to traditional people (who will be responsible for the survival of our species) to go through "sensitivity training", and the transgender people don't have to go through "normalization training".
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CPT Zachary Brooks
SPC Jonathan Sellers
I can agree. Sometimes I envy the retired.
SPC Lukas Jones
It was a difficult topic to word properly, I have tried to update that to make more sense.
I can agree. Sometimes I envy the retired.
SPC Lukas Jones
It was a difficult topic to word properly, I have tried to update that to make more sense.
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And then we will go to "Starship Troopers" style locker rooms where it just a "people" locker room.
Now that I think about it, that might actually prevent the "towel-less retiree holding a 20 min conversation with another towel-less retire" that seems to happen every time I go to the base gym's locker room.
Now that I think about it, that might actually prevent the "towel-less retiree holding a 20 min conversation with another towel-less retire" that seems to happen every time I go to the base gym's locker room.
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PO1 (Join to see)
The Nordic Navies have adopted this policy for all shipboard berthings (sleeping and bathing areas). It has had a positive influence on their overall morale and camaraderie as service members.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
SSgt Alexander Ingram, I have no idea WHY they do it...just disturbed that it happens!
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I'll comment on the issue I find interesting:
I read Christian social conservative leaders, such as the Family Research Council's Tony Perkins, commenting that we need religious freedom protection bills for business owners who want to have the freedom not to choose to serve LGBT community members -- such as the freedom to not make cakes for same sex weddings.
Here we have a business that's made the business decision to accommodate the gender identities of a subcommunity of the LGBT community, and suddenly were talking about bills that mandate which bathrooms and locker rooms transgender people can use.
We talk about freedom only in the context of the freedom for people to do what we agree with.
Let me quote what civil rights pioneer Bayard Rustin stated about gays in his 1986 essay From Montgomery To Stonewall:
"'[H]omosexuality' remains an identity that is subject to a 'we/they' distinction. People who would not say 'I am like this, but black people are like that,' or 'we are like this, but women are like that.' or 'we are like this, but Jews are like that,' find it simple to say, 'homosexuals are like that, but we are like this.' That's what makes our struggle the central struggle for human rights. If gay people do not understand that, the do not understand the opportunity before them, nor do they understand the terrifying burdens they carry on their shoulders."
Substitute "transgender" for "homosexual" in that paragraph, and that's where we are in 2015. People will believe and say trans people will do the most horrible things in women's restrooms and locker rooms because most people don't know any trans people -- the "we/they" distinction is definitely manifesting itself here.
I read Christian social conservative leaders, such as the Family Research Council's Tony Perkins, commenting that we need religious freedom protection bills for business owners who want to have the freedom not to choose to serve LGBT community members -- such as the freedom to not make cakes for same sex weddings.
Here we have a business that's made the business decision to accommodate the gender identities of a subcommunity of the LGBT community, and suddenly were talking about bills that mandate which bathrooms and locker rooms transgender people can use.
We talk about freedom only in the context of the freedom for people to do what we agree with.
Let me quote what civil rights pioneer Bayard Rustin stated about gays in his 1986 essay From Montgomery To Stonewall:
"'[H]omosexuality' remains an identity that is subject to a 'we/they' distinction. People who would not say 'I am like this, but black people are like that,' or 'we are like this, but women are like that.' or 'we are like this, but Jews are like that,' find it simple to say, 'homosexuals are like that, but we are like this.' That's what makes our struggle the central struggle for human rights. If gay people do not understand that, the do not understand the opportunity before them, nor do they understand the terrifying burdens they carry on their shoulders."
Substitute "transgender" for "homosexual" in that paragraph, and that's where we are in 2015. People will believe and say trans people will do the most horrible things in women's restrooms and locker rooms because most people don't know any trans people -- the "we/they" distinction is definitely manifesting itself here.
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PO1 Autumn Sandeen
1LT Scott D., you take trans women out of women's restrooms, you put trans men like Michael Hughes in women's restrooms. He's likely genetically female; he likely doesn't have male genitalia.
Think about that for a moment. Are you really sure you want trans men like Michael Hughes in women's restrooms so that trans women aren't in women's restrooms?
Think about that for a moment. Are you really sure you want trans men like Michael Hughes in women's restrooms so that trans women aren't in women's restrooms?
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MAJ (Join to see)
No, he has not transitioned fully. He began taking testosterone to grow a beard. Then he had a double mastectomy to remove his breasts. A sex-change operation is very risky. They have to go through a metoidioplasty, phalloplasty, scrotoplasty, glansoplasty, urethraplasty, hysterectormy, oophorectomy, vaginectomy, and a mons resection (according to the huffingtonpost article I pulled up). I can't even imagine how much all of that costs. I just had a crown replaced and the bill was $2,300. But they go through all of that with the risk of it not working properly.
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PO1 Autumn Sandeen
MAJ (Join to see), I'm not getting your point. My point related to Planet Fitness choosing to accommodate Carly Sklodowska, a male to female trans woman, in her transition. My point was relating to how trans people aren't perceceived to be whole people, about people who are the "they" in the we/they distinction. And being the "they," the "we" can imagine the "they" as being monsters capable of doing quite monstrous things. And, my point was about a business having the freedom to choose to accommodate transgender patrons.
As to your point, I'm a transgender veteran. I can tell you with certainty that transgender medical care is no more expensive, no more complicated, no more dangerous, and no less necessary than other kinds of medical care we provide to servicemembers and their families every day. In fact, the Army is now doing genital recontruction surgeries on soldiers who have had genital injuries that were first perfected for transgender men.
As to your point, I'm a transgender veteran. I can tell you with certainty that transgender medical care is no more expensive, no more complicated, no more dangerous, and no less necessary than other kinds of medical care we provide to servicemembers and their families every day. In fact, the Army is now doing genital recontruction surgeries on soldiers who have had genital injuries that were first perfected for transgender men.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I was responding to 1LT Scott's assumption that the transman in the photo you posted had fully transitioned. Most of the people posting on this thread don't understand how complicated the decision to have the bottom surgery is, the extensive amount of work that goes into it, and the cost vs. benefits of the outcome.
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