Posted on Mar 9, 2015
Planet Fitness, Transgenders, and changes in Army Policy
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Let's start this off with a quote from our Constitution that we have sworn to uphold and defend:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause
Many of you have likely heard the story in the news about a woman being kicked out of Planet Fitness for being judgmental due to a transgender woman (pre-OP) was using the female locker room.
Davenport, a transgender activist, states in the article that the female in question had a legitimate argument as did the transgender woman. She also suggested that having individual changing rooms would go a long way to rectifying this issue, and also hopefully to cut down on possible sexual assaults from males attempting to abuse this situation.
As someone who is Libertarian minded I want all people to be treated equally and I see an unequal situation being portrayed here. If Planet Fitness has in their established policy that anyone should be respected for their transgender identity, then they have a requirement to make those people feel welcome, and also those members who may not accept it.
I have seen the arguments on each side that say things in the realm of "This tranny shit is unnatural" and "This person was born a man and is a man period" as well as "This is where things are going and people just need to tolerate it or get the hell out".
Neither of these approaches is right in my opinion and we should be trying to find methods that work with all peoples and all views, but intolerance breeds more intolerance. This is obviously an issue that will be brought forth within the military, whether for the good or ill of readiness or the mission. How do we deal with this properly?
http://www.wnem.com/story/28278233/planet-fitness-drops-member-after-gender-identity-complaint
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause
Many of you have likely heard the story in the news about a woman being kicked out of Planet Fitness for being judgmental due to a transgender woman (pre-OP) was using the female locker room.
Davenport, a transgender activist, states in the article that the female in question had a legitimate argument as did the transgender woman. She also suggested that having individual changing rooms would go a long way to rectifying this issue, and also hopefully to cut down on possible sexual assaults from males attempting to abuse this situation.
As someone who is Libertarian minded I want all people to be treated equally and I see an unequal situation being portrayed here. If Planet Fitness has in their established policy that anyone should be respected for their transgender identity, then they have a requirement to make those people feel welcome, and also those members who may not accept it.
I have seen the arguments on each side that say things in the realm of "This tranny shit is unnatural" and "This person was born a man and is a man period" as well as "This is where things are going and people just need to tolerate it or get the hell out".
Neither of these approaches is right in my opinion and we should be trying to find methods that work with all peoples and all views, but intolerance breeds more intolerance. This is obviously an issue that will be brought forth within the military, whether for the good or ill of readiness or the mission. How do we deal with this properly?
http://www.wnem.com/story/28278233/planet-fitness-drops-member-after-gender-identity-complaint
Posted in these groups: 
Readiness
Transgender
Readiness Transgender
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 40
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Interestingly... I had to deal with this as a Commander...
Retired Male Soldier... working as GS employee, who dressed like a woman, was the road to becoming a woman, had changed his appearance and his/her name, but was still a man anatomically... He/She was like 6.5 inches and 300 lbs. so he stood out of the crowd, which did aid in discreteness.
The women did not feel comfortable with this person in their bathroom, nor did the men. This individual did not want to use the men's room, they wanted to use the women's room.
Retired Male Soldier... working as GS employee, who dressed like a woman, was the road to becoming a woman, had changed his appearance and his/her name, but was still a man anatomically... He/She was like 6.5 inches and 300 lbs. so he stood out of the crowd, which did aid in discreteness.
The women did not feel comfortable with this person in their bathroom, nor did the men. This individual did not want to use the men's room, they wanted to use the women's room.
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COL Charles Williams
Sorry... CPT Zachary Brooks ; CAPT Stu Merrill ... I have no been paying attention... We ended up taking one of many latrines (a small one) in the building, and providing this individual a dedicated latrine.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
If the Sec Def decides to change the military regulations this will become a real issue for leaders currently serving in the military. I personally do not wish to lose my career because the wrong politically protected class gets offended, but I also do not want to make the other 99% of the troops suffer because of a politician's forceful action.
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Here is a link that shows women who dressed like men back in the Civil War. We will always have anomales in the system. There will always be people who for one reason or another, need to break the mold. The problem lies not in their motivations, but that the military has a process called: "Basic Training" or "Boot Camp" or any other name which labels the indoctrination process for turning civilians into militants.
The question here isn't whether or not the anomale can perform to the standard as the normal person, but whether the system can handle the anomale. The system in this case is the Planet Fitness gym, and also the other system, the military. Everyone in the military system gives up their individuality so that they can become a part of the larger system. This is the way it has been for thousands of years. The Planet Fitness system is not as well established, and is therefore tossed around by the winds of change a bit more easily.
The anomales here are the transgenders. People who are born a specific gender, but identify psychologically as the opposite gender. It seems to me like these people are more interested in their individuality than being a part of the larger system. Rather than accommodate the individual, the individual needs to adapt to the system. That's it.
When it comes to the harassment in the locker rooms, or anywhere else, people need to be free from sexual advances according to the rules of the system. If Planet Fitness has a no sexual contact/language provision in its membership forms, then they should enforce that. The military has a fraternization policy and does enforce it. Yes there are the incidents which go unreported, and incidents that are covered up, but those are separate issues from the larger policy.
This entire notion of accommodating the anomalous members in our society has gone way too far. The pendulum will swing back to a place where the normal people don't have to walk on egg shells around the flamboyant, in your face, activists who seek to change everything in society to exclusively benefit themselves. Hopefully this will happen soon, so that we can all get back to our normal lives.
The question here isn't whether or not the anomale can perform to the standard as the normal person, but whether the system can handle the anomale. The system in this case is the Planet Fitness gym, and also the other system, the military. Everyone in the military system gives up their individuality so that they can become a part of the larger system. This is the way it has been for thousands of years. The Planet Fitness system is not as well established, and is therefore tossed around by the winds of change a bit more easily.
The anomales here are the transgenders. People who are born a specific gender, but identify psychologically as the opposite gender. It seems to me like these people are more interested in their individuality than being a part of the larger system. Rather than accommodate the individual, the individual needs to adapt to the system. That's it.
When it comes to the harassment in the locker rooms, or anywhere else, people need to be free from sexual advances according to the rules of the system. If Planet Fitness has a no sexual contact/language provision in its membership forms, then they should enforce that. The military has a fraternization policy and does enforce it. Yes there are the incidents which go unreported, and incidents that are covered up, but those are separate issues from the larger policy.
This entire notion of accommodating the anomalous members in our society has gone way too far. The pendulum will swing back to a place where the normal people don't have to walk on egg shells around the flamboyant, in your face, activists who seek to change everything in society to exclusively benefit themselves. Hopefully this will happen soon, so that we can all get back to our normal lives.
The women who fought as men: Rare Civil War pictures of female soldiers who dressed up as males...
Union cavalryman Jack Williams (pictured) fought in 18 battles and was wounded three times. So it came as quite a surprise when he was revealed to be mother-of-three Frances Clalin.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
Excellent write up, well done.
"It seems to me like these people are more interested in their individuality than being a part of the larger system. Rather than accommodate the individual, the individual needs to adapt to the system. That's it."
Would you consider this against the Army Values such as Duty or Selfless Service?
"It seems to me like these people are more interested in their individuality than being a part of the larger system. Rather than accommodate the individual, the individual needs to adapt to the system. That's it."
Would you consider this against the Army Values such as Duty or Selfless Service?
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How about no more Perverted Communal Showers and everyone keep their Private Parts private.
Build stalls in men and women gym locker rooms so people can shower and change in a stall. Anyone walking around/standing naked showing off their private parts should be fined and charged with city/state indecent exposure laws/codes.
If you were born with male private parts then go to male locker room and if you were born with female private parts then go to female locker room.
This is 21st century, grow up, keep your clothes on and learn some decency.
Build stalls in men and women gym locker rooms so people can shower and change in a stall. Anyone walking around/standing naked showing off their private parts should be fined and charged with city/state indecent exposure laws/codes.
If you were born with male private parts then go to male locker room and if you were born with female private parts then go to female locker room.
This is 21st century, grow up, keep your clothes on and learn some decency.
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The Olympic Committee uses DNA to determine a person's sex for the purposes of competition.... That is an alternative open to the Military. Not so much for Planet Fitness though....
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SSG Gerhard S.
If one has two X chromosomes, Female.... One X and one Y, then Male.... That's an option to consider.
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SGT (Join to see)
Unfortunately it is not that simple, while typically yes men are 46xy and women are 46xx it is possible due to genetic mutations for men to be born 46xx and women to be born 46xy, it is also possible to be born with a single sex chromosome (sex monosomies, 45x and 457) or with three or more sex chromosomes (sex polysomies, 47xxy, 47xyy, ect). That all being said, sex and gender are not necessarily the same thing.
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SSG Gerhard S.
I see now that the IOC has been using testosterone levels to make determinations on cases of hyperandrogenism since 2012 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/sports/olympics/ioc-adopts-policy-for-deciding-whether-athletes-can-compete-as-women.html?referrer=
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CPT Zachary Brooks , Respectfully, I don't see where that Constitutional quote comes into play. It clearly says "No State shall make or enforce any law...." and "...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property..."
Planet Fitness is NOT a State, it is a privately owned company that should be able to make such accommodations, or not, based on their business model, their community relations, and their revenue.
The Constitution exists to define, and limit the powers of government, not of millions of businesses, or hundreds of millions of individual persons.
Planet Fitness is NOT a State, it is a privately owned company that should be able to make such accommodations, or not, based on their business model, their community relations, and their revenue.
The Constitution exists to define, and limit the powers of government, not of millions of businesses, or hundreds of millions of individual persons.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
I agree, the business can do as they want. I personally think their choice, in the way it is applied, is disruptive to their female population. That is their choice to make.
What lessons can we take away from this for when the Sec Def decides a similar policy for the military? How can we intelligently and safely implement this policy in the military to accommodate all?
What lessons can we take away from this for when the Sec Def decides a similar policy for the military? How can we intelligently and safely implement this policy in the military to accommodate all?
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SSG Gerhard S.
That's a great question, and because the Military is a governmental entity the Constitution does apply. I, of course have the luxury of being retired, and do not have to bear the direct result of Sec Def's decision regarding this. I can only imagine that however it works out, it won't be a smooth road getting there... I will add this though.... bad ideas often find a way of working themselves out of fashion.... unfortunately, the same holds true for good ideas.
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Transgenders have a psychiatric diagnosis in DSM V, gender dysphoria. Blacks, women, and gays that once said would destroy us have all done well in the military however there is not a related mental disorder to being any of those. Transgenders deserve to be treated as human beings but risking their mental health further by sending into a combat zone does not seem wise. We do not let asthmatics join or send insulin diabetics into combat, why would we treat gender dysphoria any different?
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SGT (Join to see)
Homosexuality used to be a medical diagnosis in the DSM as well, that dose not mean it belongs there.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
Problem with your statement is society should not change medical diagnosis because society wants to. We start that pattern and before you know it, because someone smokes and is obese insurance does not pay for cardiac care or surgery. You chose to smoke and get fat, therefore you chose heart disease. Homosexuality changed from a medical diagnosis because so many wanted it changed, does not mean it is not a medical condition that needs to be treated. What if there are gays out there that believe it is a medical condition and want treatment? Those gays are now denied medical care because society deemed it no longer a medical condition. Society should not drive these changes, medicine should.
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I am still trying to figure out how we became a country of Minority rule instead of majority rule. It has always been the majority rule is the norm, but somehow we got to where the minority seems to be the rule of the land now. You have a very small portion of the country holding everyone else hostage and the PC left/right has lost their minds trying to make everyone happy. I have always been the type of person to do my own thing and not follow the group(not a lemming) but our country seems to be stuck in this mode of the lemmings looking for the cliff!
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SSG (Join to see)
That's easy, we have a constitution with a bill of rights and a court system which makes decisions based on that document. Those decisions, based on their interpretation of the constitution have continued to expand the definition of "All men" and further the ideal first mentioned in our declaration of independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
We still have a long way to go, however the slow march toward progress and inclusion continues. Some day, all men will really mean all people... and that is a great thing.
We still have a long way to go, however the slow march toward progress and inclusion continues. Some day, all men will really mean all people... and that is a great thing.
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SGT (Join to see)
Well,that is a bit of an oxymoron, all Men are created equal except for the people that have no idea what they are. We have too many people that are trying to be things they aren't in regards to either an animal or a different gender or what ever. I don't think its a matter of inclusion or exclusion, its a matter of some common sense. We have started to bend over backwards to meet or make everyone feel special and disregard the existing laws and common sense notions. We have a group that maybe makes up.01% of the population telling the rest of the population how they will do things or run their lives so they can do what they think is right. I am not saying these people have no rights, but to say a man who thinks he is a woman and yet still has his man parts is allowed to go into the womens restroom or the reverse for a woman who thinks they are a man. You infringe upon the rights of others, so where do we draw the line to give a special group more rights then the other. This is where common sense needs to be applied to the law and our Federal/State & Local judicial system either can't or won't make that decision.
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Tolerant and fair are mutually exclusive.
Tolerance refers to restraint in spite of the presence of something considered negative or toxic (e.g. Alcohol Tolerance) without addressing the underlying issues. It suggests that even though one feels something that they have to just push it all down and present neutraility and acceptance instead without addressing the root issues.
And so, if someone is being "tolerant" of a difference in another person instead of adjusting their perspective how can they possibly be expected to act fairly? The problem with tolerance is that tolerance is a poor patch job with limits, and eventually it gives. On both sides.
Screw "tolerance." I prefer to treat people well because they are people, because it's just, and I do not do it "because it's the socially accepted thing to do." I'm far more interested in dealing with individuals that are affected by a problem and working to help however I can than with solving " a problem" with some well turned phrases, legislation, and/or social programs targeted at some demographic. Because we all know how much that option accomplishes in the long run.
Tolerance refers to restraint in spite of the presence of something considered negative or toxic (e.g. Alcohol Tolerance) without addressing the underlying issues. It suggests that even though one feels something that they have to just push it all down and present neutraility and acceptance instead without addressing the root issues.
And so, if someone is being "tolerant" of a difference in another person instead of adjusting their perspective how can they possibly be expected to act fairly? The problem with tolerance is that tolerance is a poor patch job with limits, and eventually it gives. On both sides.
Screw "tolerance." I prefer to treat people well because they are people, because it's just, and I do not do it "because it's the socially accepted thing to do." I'm far more interested in dealing with individuals that are affected by a problem and working to help however I can than with solving " a problem" with some well turned phrases, legislation, and/or social programs targeted at some demographic. Because we all know how much that option accomplishes in the long run.
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Thank you for posting this article. We have a fairly new Planet Fitness here, and we had thought of perhaps switching from Anytime Fitness. Thanks to this article, I'm glad my husband renewed our Anytime Fitness membership. I don't see what the woman did wrong in reporting the transgender. As far as she could tell, a man came in while she was in a compromising situation. Maybe instead of reporting, she could've started screaming RAPE!!! That may seem extreme, but in giving transgenders and those 'self-identifying' the right to enter facilities they would not normally be permitted to go into, haven't we gone too far in the opposite extreme? What about Yvette Cormier's rights as a paying member and natural female to not have the embarrassment of being seen in state of undress by a person born (and still displaying the image and physique of) a male? Planet Fitness should be glad she simply reported the incident and tried to warn other women. She could have been a licensed weapons holder and freaked out. I can guarantee if a woman went in to the changing area where my husband was changing and used the "I identify as a man" excuse, it won't go over well with me. If people want such openness, and facilities want to support it, they need to make private bathing areas.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
"What about Yvette Cormier's rights as a paying member and natural female to not have the embarrassment of being seen in state of undress by a person born (and still displaying the image and physique of) a male?"
This is the first place my mind went, but many of those I know were cheering Planet Fitness. I definitely think the PC behavior has gone too far and is denying others their rights. If we plan to get along, we need to find ways to meet in the middle and we have had some good suggestions in this thread. Whether you agree with their choice or not, it is still their choice.
This is the first place my mind went, but many of those I know were cheering Planet Fitness. I definitely think the PC behavior has gone too far and is denying others their rights. If we plan to get along, we need to find ways to meet in the middle and we have had some good suggestions in this thread. Whether you agree with their choice or not, it is still their choice.
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MSgt Bj Jones
Yes, it is their choice, CPT Zachary Brooks ; however, I do think dropping Yvette's membership as they did was extreme. I'd venture those she was informing appreciated the 'heads up'. I know I would. Planet Fitness should let folks know their transgender policies. Apparently they don't. If they had, this incident likely wouldn't have happened.
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