Posted on Nov 7, 2013
1SG Master Leader Course Facilitator
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Have you ever given someone a NCOER/OER that they weren't deserving of only because you didn't want to hurt their career? I get questioned a lot about why I give 2/2's when they're a very good NCO's, whereas their peers in other units who are substandard performers are getting a better eval. It is a hard balance because you don't want to affect their career by putting them behind their peers but on the other hand you have to be honest about how we evaluate our NCO's and Officers. I know how I operate, what are your thoughts on this?
Posted in these groups: 1efa5058 NCOERBilde2 OERUnited states army logo Army
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Responses: 15
SSG Lisa Rendina
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I worked for a CSM once that stated "If you are not rating your NCOs 1/1 how can you expect to be rated a 1/1?"  While not everyone can honestly be a 1/1 NCO, that guidance stuck with me.  If I am giving a less-than-stellar NCOER to a subordinate then I must be failing that NCO in leadership and training.  It's too bad more NCOs do not think this way.
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SFC Senior Small Group Leader (Ssgl)
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12 y
I somewhat agree with you on this, but some NCOs just cannot be trained, and should be reduced.  I tried my hardest to train, guide, and mentor two Sgts who worked for me, I counseled, I mentored, but one just didn't give a damn about his troops, and the other was sadly incompetent.  I wrote them both 4/4 NCOERs but was not allowed to reduce them
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SSG Lisa Rendina
SSG Lisa Rendina
12 y
I see what you are saying, are there exceptions...sure.  Of course, you also have the quarterly counselings to back up your reasons for the rating and I am sure you have other documentation and witnesses of your efforts to mentor, train, guide, etc those NCOs.
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SFC Clinops
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NO 1SG, we are NOT.  If your CoC has removed 4 Soldiers from under you, but you have 1/1  and amongst the  best (I just saw this happen) then WE are doing a GRAVE injustice to fellow NCOs, the Soldiers and the Army period.  That's how we get toxic leadership at the top, because no one saw fit to provide the proper NCOER or the correct mentorship.  For some I've seen them "give" the great NCOER just to move the NCO on.  I've heard it said "well, we don't wanna mess up someone's career."  I guess I wonder how does it feel when the leader has provided these erroneous NCOERs and then sees that rated NCO on the front page of the Army Times or the local paper for inappropriate behavior or actions regarding our Soldiers.  
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SGT(P) Prime Power Production Specialist
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Bring back the SQT!  That's right, not only promote on the existing criteria, but also bring back the remaining 200 points and ensure that all personnel seeking promotion are well versed in their MOS. 

Currently, your knowledge of your main job in the Army bears no relevance on your ablilty to get promoted.  I work in a dangerous MOS, around high voltage electricity, and a significant number of personnel are dangerously underqualified.  It is literally a matter of life and death, as an incorrect connection will kill someone.  But, instead of being promoted on knowledge, or even a hands on exam, they are promoted based soley on their ablilty to shoot, do PT, and complete some form of education which is not required to be in their field.
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
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12 y
I have to agree SGT Schoof, especially as a technical MOS (guru some would say) myself. If our promotions were based primarily off of our job skills, to include basic Soldiering and leadership, instead of PT scores and pretty uniforms... I believe our formations would look much different. 

We've lost track of the "total Soldier" concept and instead have shifted focus from our mission essential jobs, to the things that can be used for putting on a show. Don't get me wrong, I try to make sure my uniform is always in top presentable condition (this is called pride in service, we use to see it with highly shined boots, and starched BDUs), but the job skill we possess and pas on are what is really important... aren't they? Anymore, it seems more about how many blocks we can check, and off to another school to "teach" us something we will never actually use.

Just my two cents
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Proper evaluations, are we doing this?
CSM Mike Maynard
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I have been seeing the exact same thing for quite a while. But now I'm in a position to affect this and do the right thing. We're spending quite a bit of time "re-calibrating" everyone on what Excellence and Success mean. If you have failed to maintain an Army standard during your evaluation period - you are a Needs Improvement. If you are currently failing an Army standard, you are a Needs Much Improvement. It's not about whether you finally met the standard on the last day of your rating period, the evaluation is for the whole rating period. Additionally, hard to say you are "Among the Best" if you have failed to maintain the Army standard - APFT, Art 15, ABCP, Wpns Qual, etc. As far as the Senior Rater portion, everyone can't be a 1/1. Just not possible. Officers have a system/process in place that only allows them to give "Above Center of Mass" to a certain percentage. We too should be honest enough to rate only those folks that are our top performers as 1/1 and use the 2 and 3 blocks appropriately to help them focus on those areas they need to improve in and help make it clear to the board who the top performers are by saving the 1/1s for only the very best.
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CPT Chemical, Biological, Radiological & Nuclear Officer
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12 y
I agree, CSM. I was reviewing a NCOER and i noticed a rater gave the soldier a "S" even though the soldier failed Height/Weight. I think some raters are just scared to give a "Needs Improvement" especially if they dont have any counselings to back it up. I think NCOER training would be good. Not just for NCO professional development but LEADER development because us officers need schooling on this also.
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
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CSM, 
...and if this were to be implemented in EVERY unit, maybe centralized and semi-centralized boards would actually pick up all of the best qualified, instead of a lot of those that have been "fluffed" through the ranks. I've seen quite a few that made SFC because of NCOERs not reflecting that they performed like garbage. I've seen these few pass up their better performing, better qualified peers... because someone said, "you can't do that to his career" and gave them an unearned rating.
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CMC Robert Young
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1SG, I had an occasion several years ago that illustrates your point. I had an E6 who was evaluated and recommended for participation in the E7 advancement exam process (SWE). It was clear to me that he did not meet the standards of performance required to become an E7 on the off chance that he rated high enough against his peer group scheduled for the SWE that fall. I declined to endorse his request for participation in the SWE, and counseled his direct supervisor as to the specifics offering some constructive input as to needed changes. The command backed my decision. Case closed......so I thought.

 

The following evaluation cycle, his supervisor recommended him for participation in the SWE despite no improvement in his performance, and once again, I declined to endorse the recommendation based on the same solid facts as the previous year. The command overruled me this time saying that we had hurt his career, and by holding our recommendation for a second year, we would significantly damage his career long term. He had apparently served his punishment by not advancing during the previous cycle, and he was now "entitled" to compete in the process. As fate would have it, a weak field overall pushed his final multiple (line score) to near the top and he advanced to E7 where he promptly imploded.

 

We do our people and the organization a disservice if we don't evaluate people fairly, and hold them accountable. The organization suffers because the best candidates don't necessarily get the positions they should, and members who benefit from a fluffed up evaluation more often than not don't have the skills to perform the job they inherit.

 

Thanks for letting me rant.

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1SG Master Leader Course Facilitator
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12 y
Awesome comment SCPO Young! I had a similar experience but with better results. I had two Squad Leaders I was rating in Afghanistan. One was a good performer, but not great. I gave him an very good NCOER, with a 2 in performance and poetential, rather than 1's. Not a bad NCOER at all, in fact a very good one.  I had a second SL who I gave 1's too because he was ready to be a E-7 and take over my job. When they both got looked at for E-7, the Excellent performer got picked up and the other one didn't. I was pleased, but I know the system is flawed.
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SCPO David Lockwood
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The evaluations will never be done correctly.&nbsp; Everyone who writes them are out to give their people an edge and will over inflate the marks.&nbsp; How do you fix this?&nbsp; I doubt that you will ever to fix the problem until you take the human factor out of it and that will never happen.<br>
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SGT(P) Water Treatment Specialist
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1SG, unfortunately, I have seen many times where the evaluations process is broken.  The Army definitely needs to figure out a better way.  Just recently I saw an NCO who had seriously messed up and was removed from his position, but was given the same scores on his evaluation as the NCOs who excelled.  The reason given was because if he was given the scores he should have received it would look as if he was being targeted.  I am sorry, but if I messed up and was removed from my position, I would expect my NCOER to reflect that.  However, it should go the same way for the opposite.  If an NCO is excelling, his NCOER should reflect that.  Sadly, I see a lot of Raters who as you stated don't want to affect someones career, but if they aren't performing up to standard, then they shouldn't be in that job. 
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
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and yet, the entire purpose of the NCOER (especially since it is submitted to HRC and permanently recorded, unlike the DA FORM 4856) IS to affect someone's career. It is mean to separate the "men from the boys" so-to-speak, or (in a more P.C. manner) to separate the top tier from the bottom of the barrel. So, stick to your guns and rate your subordinates the way they deserve to be rated... CORRECTLY!
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SSG(P) Assistant Station Commander
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Since I have been a NCO I have seen an unjust and unfair system play out. Many times unsat performance is brushed aside because the rater is their friend. I have seen the other side also. The system is broken. It is not a fair way to evaluate the performance of a NCO. There is too much bias, personal feelings and unjust actions going on.
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SSG (ret) William Martin
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1SG, That is very unfortunate to boost an NCO's career and they don't deserve it.  They only get in the way for true performers. 
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1SG Master Leader Course Facilitator
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I honestly like the OER system now that I have become more familiar with it here at OCS. I like the fact that if you have 4 Squad Leaders that you rate, you could rank them from 1 to 4 and that would show a board that in a Platoon, said individual was only the 3rd or 4th best Squad Leader. It's still not a perfect system by any means, but much better than the NCOER system in my opinion.

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CMC Robert Young
CMC Robert Young
12 y

At one time the Navy used a similar system where a ship's CO rated his department heads (senior officer corps onboard) from 1 through 4 or 5 depending on how the ship's ORPLAN was established. The idea was to rate people against their immediate peer group.

 

The complaint that was that it pitted peers against each other inside the command because there could only be one top dog. It also didn't rate people against people in the same specialty at other commands. The officer writing the article I read describing the system was not in favor of it. His experience was the negative effects from the competition outweighed the benefits, and average performers in poor environments often got better ratings than good performers in very strong commands.

 

That said, it is clear to most of us who have used any military personnel evaluation system that there are inherent flaws, and that far too frequently, the rater can skew the results any way they want. It's on us as leaders to ensure the integrity of the system....something that doesn't always happen.

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