Posted on Nov 8, 2015
Recalling a life event that occured 50 years ago using a word closely resembling what occured, is it a lie if you didnt know the difference?
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If you were recalling a significant life event that happened to you over 50 years before and you used a synonym or something close to describe part of the event, does that constitute a lie if you didnt know the difference (Scholarship versus appointment; which means tuition, room, and board)? Or does this constitute a witch hunt as Dr. Carson has stated?
WASHINGTON, Nov 6 (Reuters) - Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson's recollection of being offered a scholarship to the prestigious U.S. Military Academy at West Point was questioned on Friday, potentially damaging the credibility of the 64-year-old retired neurosurgeon.
Also on Friday, Carson's account of how he attempted to stab a friend in his troubled youth came under renewed scrutiny.
Carson, a favorite of conservative activists, who is tied with Donald Trump at the top of Republican primary polls a year before the November 2016 presidential election, has often recounted both tales from his 1990 autobiography on the campaign trail, as he trumpets his rise from poverty in inner-city Detroit to the highest echelons of medicine.
On Friday, Carson's campaign said he never sought admission to West Point, while Carson himself gave a slightly different account of the stabbing incident, describing the boy he lunged at as a close relative instead of a friend.
"These are little things that get at his credibility," said John Feehery, a Republican strategist who is not working for any of the 2016 presidential candidates. "He's coming in there as an outsider who is honest and a breath of fresh air. If his whole life story is undermined by these little inaccuracies it could have a negative effect."
Carson told Fox News his account of the West Point scholarship offer "could have been more clarified." He is planning to participate in a live interview on Sunday morning on CBS's "Face The Nation," where he will likely face tough questions.
"Voters care about candidate integrity," said Laura Stoker, a political science professor at the University of California, Berkeley. "But people - especially those who already favor Carson - will resist allegations until information is definitive."
Carson's supporters seemed unperturbed, and doubted whether the candidate had been inaccurate.
"If I had a general come up to me when I was 17 years old and try to convince me to go to West Point and he told me my expenses would be paid, I don't think it would be so far-fetched to think he offered me a scholarship," said Warren Galkin, 86, of Warwick, Rhode Island, who has given money to a political action committee supporting Carson's campaign.
WEST POINT SCHOLARSHIP
In his autobiography, "Gifted Hands," Carson wrote that as a high school student he dined with General William Westmoreland in 1969. "Later I was offered a full scholarship to West Point," he wrote, saying that he turned it down. "As overjoyed as I felt to be offered such a scholarship, I wasn't really tempted."
Carson's campaign said on Friday that his grades and conversations with officials of the ROTC, which provides preliminary military training for students interested in becoming officers, constituted a de facto acceptance to the academy, which provides full scholarships to all of its students. But it said Carson never actually applied or was admitted to West Point.
"His Senior Commander was in touch with West Point and told Dr. Carson he could get in, Dr. Carson did not seek admission," Carson's campaign spokesman Doug Watts told Reuters in an email.
"Dr. Carson, as the leading ROTC student in Detroit, was told by his Commanders that he could get an Appointment to the Academy," Watts said. "He never said he was admitted or even applied."
West Point on Friday said there was no record of Carson completing an application for admission. It is possible someone nominated him for the academy, but that would only have been an early step in the multi-part process of admission.
"Candidate files where admission/acceptance was not sought are retained for three years; therefore we cannot confirm whether anyone during that time period was nominated to West Point if they chose not to pursue completion of the application process," West Point spokeswoman Theresa Brinkerhoff said in an email to Reuters.
"No one can enter the academy without completing the entire admission process," she added.
The differing accounts of Carson's West Point scholarship were first reported by political news website Politico, in a story headlined "Ben Carson admits fabricating West Point scholarship."
Carson's campaign contested that interpretation.
"The Politico story is an outright lie," Watts said in an email to Reuters. "The campaign never 'admitted to anything.'"
CARSON HITS BACK
The fracas over West Point came only hours after Carson attacked the media for questioning his accounts of a violent past.
"This is a bunch of lies," Carson told CNN on Friday. "This is what it is, it's a bunch of lies attempting, you know, to say that I'm lying about my history. I think it's pathetic."
Carson, who is popular with evangelical voters, often speaks on the campaign trail about flashes of violence during his youth, casting the lessons he learned from that period as evidence he has the strength of character to be president.
In his autobiography, the renowned brain surgeon wrote that as a teen, he tried to stab a friend named Bob in the stomach with a knife, but the boy's belt buckle blocked the knife.
On Thursday on the campaign trail, when pressed by reporters about the incident and also in an interview with Fox News, Carson said that Bob's name, along with some other names in the autobiography, were pseudonyms that he used to protect the privacy of the people he was writing about.
He described Bob in the book as a friend and classmate. In the Fox News interview and on CNN, Carson said the boy was a "close relative."
WASHINGTON, Nov 6 (Reuters) - Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson's recollection of being offered a scholarship to the prestigious U.S. Military Academy at West Point was questioned on Friday, potentially damaging the credibility of the 64-year-old retired neurosurgeon.
Also on Friday, Carson's account of how he attempted to stab a friend in his troubled youth came under renewed scrutiny.
Carson, a favorite of conservative activists, who is tied with Donald Trump at the top of Republican primary polls a year before the November 2016 presidential election, has often recounted both tales from his 1990 autobiography on the campaign trail, as he trumpets his rise from poverty in inner-city Detroit to the highest echelons of medicine.
On Friday, Carson's campaign said he never sought admission to West Point, while Carson himself gave a slightly different account of the stabbing incident, describing the boy he lunged at as a close relative instead of a friend.
"These are little things that get at his credibility," said John Feehery, a Republican strategist who is not working for any of the 2016 presidential candidates. "He's coming in there as an outsider who is honest and a breath of fresh air. If his whole life story is undermined by these little inaccuracies it could have a negative effect."
Carson told Fox News his account of the West Point scholarship offer "could have been more clarified." He is planning to participate in a live interview on Sunday morning on CBS's "Face The Nation," where he will likely face tough questions.
"Voters care about candidate integrity," said Laura Stoker, a political science professor at the University of California, Berkeley. "But people - especially those who already favor Carson - will resist allegations until information is definitive."
Carson's supporters seemed unperturbed, and doubted whether the candidate had been inaccurate.
"If I had a general come up to me when I was 17 years old and try to convince me to go to West Point and he told me my expenses would be paid, I don't think it would be so far-fetched to think he offered me a scholarship," said Warren Galkin, 86, of Warwick, Rhode Island, who has given money to a political action committee supporting Carson's campaign.
WEST POINT SCHOLARSHIP
In his autobiography, "Gifted Hands," Carson wrote that as a high school student he dined with General William Westmoreland in 1969. "Later I was offered a full scholarship to West Point," he wrote, saying that he turned it down. "As overjoyed as I felt to be offered such a scholarship, I wasn't really tempted."
Carson's campaign said on Friday that his grades and conversations with officials of the ROTC, which provides preliminary military training for students interested in becoming officers, constituted a de facto acceptance to the academy, which provides full scholarships to all of its students. But it said Carson never actually applied or was admitted to West Point.
"His Senior Commander was in touch with West Point and told Dr. Carson he could get in, Dr. Carson did not seek admission," Carson's campaign spokesman Doug Watts told Reuters in an email.
"Dr. Carson, as the leading ROTC student in Detroit, was told by his Commanders that he could get an Appointment to the Academy," Watts said. "He never said he was admitted or even applied."
West Point on Friday said there was no record of Carson completing an application for admission. It is possible someone nominated him for the academy, but that would only have been an early step in the multi-part process of admission.
"Candidate files where admission/acceptance was not sought are retained for three years; therefore we cannot confirm whether anyone during that time period was nominated to West Point if they chose not to pursue completion of the application process," West Point spokeswoman Theresa Brinkerhoff said in an email to Reuters.
"No one can enter the academy without completing the entire admission process," she added.
The differing accounts of Carson's West Point scholarship were first reported by political news website Politico, in a story headlined "Ben Carson admits fabricating West Point scholarship."
Carson's campaign contested that interpretation.
"The Politico story is an outright lie," Watts said in an email to Reuters. "The campaign never 'admitted to anything.'"
CARSON HITS BACK
The fracas over West Point came only hours after Carson attacked the media for questioning his accounts of a violent past.
"This is a bunch of lies," Carson told CNN on Friday. "This is what it is, it's a bunch of lies attempting, you know, to say that I'm lying about my history. I think it's pathetic."
Carson, who is popular with evangelical voters, often speaks on the campaign trail about flashes of violence during his youth, casting the lessons he learned from that period as evidence he has the strength of character to be president.
In his autobiography, the renowned brain surgeon wrote that as a teen, he tried to stab a friend named Bob in the stomach with a knife, but the boy's belt buckle blocked the knife.
On Thursday on the campaign trail, when pressed by reporters about the incident and also in an interview with Fox News, Carson said that Bob's name, along with some other names in the autobiography, were pseudonyms that he used to protect the privacy of the people he was writing about.
He described Bob in the book as a friend and classmate. In the Fox News interview and on CNN, Carson said the boy was a "close relative."
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 49
Hardly what I would call a lie, a man in his late 50's recollecting an incident that he understood only through his 17-year-old understanding. Hardly compares to Clinton's blatant, bald faced, lies about Benghazi.
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MAJ (Join to see)
MSgt (Join to see) Clinton not yet having been charged with improper handling of classified information leads me to believe that there was nothing classified in her emails. If she is eventually charged, then I'd change my stance, but until then, no evidence exists to suggest that there was classified information on her server or in her emails. Also, by the way, I agree with you on the point about "different spanks for different ranks." The standard should be applied equally. How any of this applies to your position on Carson still baffles me.
Capt (Join to see) I like facts and evidence. I know that lots of folks don't care for facts and evidence, and that's ok for them. But best guesses are rarely accepted as evidence. Also, what do Clinton's alleged transgressions have to do with Carson's?
Capt (Join to see) I like facts and evidence. I know that lots of folks don't care for facts and evidence, and that's ok for them. But best guesses are rarely accepted as evidence. Also, what do Clinton's alleged transgressions have to do with Carson's?
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MSgt (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) - It does apply because this is simply a matter of telling a story of something that happened when he was a kid and with clinton it is recent and ongoing history. To say that no classified material had been found on her server is untrue, there has been and the fact that she takes none of this seriously is disconcerting. She will not be there when that phone rings at 4am.
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Capt (Join to see)
Well, MAJ (Join to see) when you hear it said by her herself and still try to ignore it, there is simply no help for you.
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I see it as a witch hunt of sorts. I don't doubt that he was verbally told he would qualify for an appointment to USMA by his H.S. ROTC commander and/or other adults. He probably took that to mean offered a scholarship. I don't think I knew he difference at that age. As to the reports that he had a violent temper. Does that really matter? I would argue that most kids under 14 do stupid things every day but how does that pertain to their lives as adults? Look at what he did as an adult! He was a gifted doctor who helped better countless lives through his knowledge and skill. I hope people are smarter than to believe every sensationalized media story that comes out about this highly qualified candidate. I for one am ready for a non-politician to lead this country for a change.
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Maj Jeff Dodd
MAJ (Join to see) - I think the many support staff, nurses, and other doctors who worked with him over the decades would have come out of the woodwork by now or been "discovered" by a news media outlet to discredit him professionally. To my knowledge that hasn't happened.
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SSgt (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) - Going by the example you gave, I think people remember and forget what they want and then there are the accounts that err innocently. In other words, the brain operates in certain nodes, guaranteeing a consistent response, unless the rational mind debates and outcome.....
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Maj Jeff Dodd
LTC Bink Romanick - Yep, retired as a Maj in July with just over 20 good years. My last assignment was a great position and probably would have been competitive to promote to LtCol but I'm gone a lot with my civilian job and needed to be home more. I had a great run though!!
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While the left loses their collective minds over this, Hillary should be brought up on federal charges, and be in prison. But that's none of my business.....
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SGT Ronald Audas
SSgt (Join to see) - I normally don`t respond if someone calls me out.I love this site,and enjoy the friendly banter.To answer your accusation ;Yes I believe Hillary`s fibbing is part of who she is.To quote Jerry Zeitman,Hillary`s supervisor when she was 27 years old and on the Judicial Committe.( which is in the seventies ,I believe). " She was an unethical,dishonest lawyer.She conspired to violate the Constitution,the rules of the House,the rules of the committe,and the rules of confidentiality. " She is a liar".I am a big George Bush backer.It breaks my heart to realize that he did a lot of things I don`t agree with.I think you would do well to not gloss over someone who is not very shiny.I also understand she and her smarmy husband never did return all of the $ 68,000 worth of stuff they stole when they left the White House.
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Full Video - Ben Carson Feisty Press Conference About West Point Scholarship - Defiant Ben Carson...
A defiant Ben Carson on Friday rejected the idea his past descriptions of receiving a scholarship offer to attend West Point were inaccurate, and called ques...
Before you all try to take sides and convict this man on a scholarship offer or not, I challenge you to listen to this press conference......show me the facts, I think many of our RP'ers are piling on the witch hunt to discredit this man. Show me the facts, listen to the press conference and let me know what you think.....show me the proof.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx_Mh7apo6k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx_Mh7apo6k
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MAJ (Join to see)
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39579/ben-carson-debunked-west-point/
You asked for some facts.
You asked for some facts.
Ben Carson Debunked: Inside His Made-Up West Point Story
He claimed time and again—as recently as last Friday–that he was offered entrance to the military academy in 1969. Here's proof that he's not telling the truth.
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I think the press is making a bit of a mountain out of a mole hill. I am sure someone mentioned that he could probably get an appointment to West Point given his success in JROTC and that he would not have to pay for school, aka "a full ride". Most non-military folks would think of that as a scholarship.
The fact that he is being dogged by this controversy is just a fact of politics these days. There are still politicians and media outlets who claim that President Obama was born in Kenya and is a Muslin. Both claims were proven false years ago, but they still dog the President.
As my high school girlfriend used to say, "what's good for the goose is good for the other goose."
All that said, I still wouldn't want that nut - job as president.
The fact that he is being dogged by this controversy is just a fact of politics these days. There are still politicians and media outlets who claim that President Obama was born in Kenya and is a Muslin. Both claims were proven false years ago, but they still dog the President.
As my high school girlfriend used to say, "what's good for the goose is good for the other goose."
All that said, I still wouldn't want that nut - job as president.
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SSgt (Join to see)
MAJ Keith FitzPatrick, CPIM, CSCP When Hillary was a kid, her mother asked her if she ate the cookies and Hillary responded, "Not that I recall!" lol
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"I think what … these kinds of things show, is there is a desperation on behalf of some to try to find a way to tarnish me," Carson said Friday night during a news conference outside West Palm Beach, Fla.
At the Friday news conference, Carson said, "It was an offer to me. It was specifically made." He said he could not recall specifically who made the offer. "It's almost 50 years ago. I bet you don't remember all the people you talked to 50 years ago," he said.
At the Friday news conference, Carson said, "It was an offer to me. It was specifically made." He said he could not recall specifically who made the offer. "It's almost 50 years ago. I bet you don't remember all the people you talked to 50 years ago," he said.
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MSgt (Join to see)
LTC Bink Romanick - Sir, I hate to dispute your notion that you remember everything perfectly as you claim but you don't. No one does.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hidden-motives/201203/unreliable-memory
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hidden-motives/201203/unreliable-memory
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SGM (Join to see)
Nothing more than a witch hunt in my opinion. The left (and right) will always find some little detail or comment made by the other side and try to destroy that person's credibility or even eligibility to run for office. Sarah Palin and her "I can see Russia from my house", Obama saying he had visited 57 states, etc.
Nothing more than a witch hunt in my opinion. The left (and right) will always find some little detail or comment made by the other side and try to destroy that person's credibility or even eligibility to run for office. Sarah Palin and her "I can see Russia from my house", Obama saying he had visited 57 states, etc.
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In my opinion, the discussion of a scholarship versus an appointment is immaterial. The bigger issue is his wording about exactly what he was offered. I think most people know the difference between being informally recruited and "being offered a full scholarship". In my opinion, he was embellishing the truth. Is that a lie? I guess that depends on how you define a lie. Some people see a lie as being along a spectrum, with a full, blatant lie being on one extreme and an innocent, white lie being on the other extreme. At some point along that spectrum, you go from "unacceptable" to "acceptable". Others see a lie as being anything other than telling the full truth, and therefore any type of lie is unacceptable.
I won't judge him as being a liar. I just won't vote for him if he makes the general election.
I won't judge him as being a liar. I just won't vote for him if he makes the general election.
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SSG Robert Webster
LTC Kevin B. - "In my opinion, the discussion of a scholarship versus an appointment is immaterial. The bigger issue is his wording about exactly what he was offered." - Contradict yourself very often? And this is not putting words in your mouth - this is a straight quote from your statement and the beginning of this section of the discussion thread.
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LTC Kevin B.
SSG Robert Webster - It's not a contradiction, but thanks for unnecessarily being snide. My point is that I don't care whether it was an offer for an "appointment" or an offer for a "scholarship". I'm more worried about whether he claims to have been told "I will offer you a full scholarship/appointment" or if he was told "With your record, we could probably get you a full scholarship/appointment." The former is an explicit and tangible offer, whereas the latter is nothing more than a characterization of his qualifications and a willingness to assist with getting an explicit offer. A "scholarship offer" and an "offer to assist" are two different things. If you can't understand my point, then the problem is with you, not with my words.
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LTC Kevin B.
SFC Joseph Weber - I like the story about where he was caught up in the armed robbery, and how he basically asked the robber to "Rob him, not me." Very nice.
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A few thoughts:
- I do not think Ben Carson lied.
- I think the media are being selective and arbitrary in who they target for reporting, what they target, and how they report it. Media bias is the short phrase.
- It would be interesting to see the media apply the same sort of scrutiny to Mr. Obama, Mrs. Clinton, and others. I am not asking for softball/easy reporting. I am just asking for the media to call it the same way on both sides of the game. That is demonstratably and provably NOT the case now.
- The above has negative and long lasting consequences for the United States. Our government is predicated upon an educated and informed population to make decisions and vote. The education comes from our schools which are failing while the information comes from our media which is not doing its job properly.
- I do not think Ben Carson lied.
- I think the media are being selective and arbitrary in who they target for reporting, what they target, and how they report it. Media bias is the short phrase.
- It would be interesting to see the media apply the same sort of scrutiny to Mr. Obama, Mrs. Clinton, and others. I am not asking for softball/easy reporting. I am just asking for the media to call it the same way on both sides of the game. That is demonstratably and provably NOT the case now.
- The above has negative and long lasting consequences for the United States. Our government is predicated upon an educated and informed population to make decisions and vote. The education comes from our schools which are failing while the information comes from our media which is not doing its job properly.
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SGM (Join to see)
COL Jason Smallfield, Very succinctly stated, sir. So, you believe that Dr. Carson is not being treated the same as others. You know, sir, I seem to remember hearing the same thing form the other side of the aisle when our current POTUS has come under intense media scrutiny. Perhaps both sides are to blame, sir, when it comes to media bias with regard to aspiring presidential candidates. After all a lot was made of Pres. Obama’s birth certificate and his association with the Rev. Wright, no?
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MAJ (Join to see)
Sir: The alternative to Carson not lying here is that he is telling the truth. As the truth seems not to be part of his story (ie, he couldn't have declined an offer to go to West Point from Westmoreland, because Carson never applied to West Point, Westmorelamd had no authority to make such an offer, Westmoreland wasn't in Detroit as Carson claimed, etc, etc).....how is that not lying?
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COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM
MAJ Jager, I would have to go back to Mr. Carson's exact words and not someone else's or the media's translation of his words in order to answer your question. Is the above Mr. Carson's actual words or what you think his words were? I am asking because I do not know. Also, you do not think it possible that Mr. Carson turned down an offer of assistance to get to West Point vice an actual appointment to West Point? Only someone who has gone through the entire actual process would be able to properly understand and communicate the process. Obviously Mr. Carson has not.
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MSgt (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) - That is not the only alternative. As I have stated previoulys no ones memory is perfect. Unless you record everything you will retell it differently every time. Embellishing things as you go. If you say you don't then you would be wrong.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hidden-motives/201203/unreliable-memory
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hidden-motives/201203/unreliable-memory
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The main stream media is in attack mode and will remain so for the next year. They long ago determined that Hillbillary was their candidate and are pissed that the citizens will even have a vote. As far as Carson lying, I think not and challenge anyone to remember exact details of something decades ago.
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