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I have been dealing with this a lot. I have seen both ways. As per AR 600–25 the junior person should salute. I see a 1LT senior to a 2LT and I salute them. I have seen many instances where this does not happen. Most see a LT as a LT regardless of being a 1st or 2nd. How do you all feel about this?
"B. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States..."
"B. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States..."
Officers
Customs and Courtesies
Army
Saluting
AR 600-25
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 1296
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No. Lieutenant have not and should not salute each other.
Respect among LTs is like honor among whores.
Respect among LTs is like honor among whores.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I was addressing your points. Again for the last two weeks I've been on the road so I've been using my phone. the mobile version is a bit more compact, but I thought you and I were bantering back and forth. if I've given the appearance of being disrespectful to LTC Worley, or anyone, that was not my intention. I was under the impression that we were all discussing an issue and debating it. to be honest I find it hard to understand where the confusion is. obviously things are different in your experience, but I can't dismiss it as just an EOD thing or just your perception as there have been several others bac up your position. from my point of view and experience it's clear cut but I think at this point I need to agree to disagree and move on. without a moderator rhis discussion. could go on for years with no resolution
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MAJ (Join to see)
again, I haven't had the opportunity to sit at an actual computer so that I can cut and paste where is says in the regulations that due respect and courtesy will be shown to rank appropriately, and where it says junior officers will salute senior officers. I have mentioned several times that I am on a mobile training team and will be happy to cut and paste it as well as read through your evidence for why rank can be ignored, apparently in the junior officer ranks. soon as I can.
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MAJ (Join to see)
the LT who posted this question stated the obvious regulation where it says point blank that it IS done and I have yet to see anything, though I could have missed it, that says in black and white by regulation, that the opposite is true
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CDR Michael Goldschmidt
Nicely put, MAJ. Tradition may also vary based on service, community, command, and circumstance. I'm positive LTs in aircraft squadrons don't salute each other, although it's doubtful one would reach an operational squadron as an O-1. When relieving watches in the Navy, it's not the junior who initiates the salute, but the officer relieving the watch. Likewise, the Officer of the Deck receives salutes and grants permission on behalf of the Commanding Officer for all personnel except the CO or XO boarding or leaving the ship. This includes officers senior to the Commanding Officer.
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I've read a lot of good responses to this question, but I'm not sure many of them understand the point of the question. A few officers have commented to the effect that "it seems all commenters who have not been an O1 or O2 thinks that salutes should be rendered, and almost all officers know better." I think this is on point, so let me try to take a stab with my own explanation...
By regulation, yes, the junior ranking member ALWAYS salutes the senior. However, while it would be easy to answer the question in the context of LTC saluting COL, or even a CSM saluting a 2LT, the dynamic between these ranks is simply NOT the same at between a 1LT and 2LT.
From the date you commission as a 2LT, the time-in-grade requirement is 18 months to promote to 1LT. Once you hit that 18 months, it is nearly impossible not to be promoted effective on that date...I'm talking automatic. Unless you commit a felony or try to quit the military, it's going to happen. Because of this, as well as there being only minor differences in positions held by O1 and O2, Lieutenants = Lieutenants in the officer corps.
Again, regulations are regulations, but like anything in the military, things are just different in practice. As a 2LT, I saluted a 1LT approximately once, after which a CPT in the area walked over, looked me dead in the eye and said "Gardner, a lieutenant is a lieutenant is a lieutenant." In the same respect, if a 1LT tried to reprimand a 2LT for not saluting them, the 1LT would get destroyed by a senior officer. All LT's should understand this, which is why you'd be hard-pressed to find a 1LT who felt disrespected when a 2LT didn't render a salute. Most understand that there is mutual respect and it is more pretentious than necessary.
By regulation, yes, the junior ranking member ALWAYS salutes the senior. However, while it would be easy to answer the question in the context of LTC saluting COL, or even a CSM saluting a 2LT, the dynamic between these ranks is simply NOT the same at between a 1LT and 2LT.
From the date you commission as a 2LT, the time-in-grade requirement is 18 months to promote to 1LT. Once you hit that 18 months, it is nearly impossible not to be promoted effective on that date...I'm talking automatic. Unless you commit a felony or try to quit the military, it's going to happen. Because of this, as well as there being only minor differences in positions held by O1 and O2, Lieutenants = Lieutenants in the officer corps.
Again, regulations are regulations, but like anything in the military, things are just different in practice. As a 2LT, I saluted a 1LT approximately once, after which a CPT in the area walked over, looked me dead in the eye and said "Gardner, a lieutenant is a lieutenant is a lieutenant." In the same respect, if a 1LT tried to reprimand a 2LT for not saluting them, the 1LT would get destroyed by a senior officer. All LT's should understand this, which is why you'd be hard-pressed to find a 1LT who felt disrespected when a 2LT didn't render a salute. Most understand that there is mutual respect and it is more pretentious than necessary.
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1LT(P) (Join to see)
Sir, would you mind copying it into a comment here? I'm curious but I can't find your original comment and I can't see your profile yet.
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1LT(P) (Join to see)
Bravo, sir. I agree 100%. Also, I had a laugh after I read several people saying there are no O-1 slots on an MTOE - I had never noticed that until then.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I have been in the Army 26 years, enlisted, NCO and now Officer. I have seen many instances where a 2LT did NOT salute a 1LT and was summarily given the riot act treatment by either a CPT, Field Grade officer or a Senior NCO.
The Navy does have the 01/02 distinction, it is the difference between an Ensign and a Lieutenant Junior Grade (LT. JG.). The reason behind the Gold vs. Silver in the color distinction is due to an "apprenticeship" status. a 2LT (O1) is learning the basics of being a commissioned officer, whereas with a 1LT, it is presumed they understand their job well enough to need minimal supervision in their job and the MDMP.
Occasionally, there are Officers who are commissioned as 1LT, CPT, MAJ, LTC or even COL's (on very rare occasions). This is due to their experience and education in the civilian sector. They don't yet know how to be officers in the military, but they have the technical knowledge commensurate with their rank. So, should they be treated as 1LT's are with 2LT's or should they be rendered the proper courtesy their commission has authorized them to receive?
The Navy does have the 01/02 distinction, it is the difference between an Ensign and a Lieutenant Junior Grade (LT. JG.). The reason behind the Gold vs. Silver in the color distinction is due to an "apprenticeship" status. a 2LT (O1) is learning the basics of being a commissioned officer, whereas with a 1LT, it is presumed they understand their job well enough to need minimal supervision in their job and the MDMP.
Occasionally, there are Officers who are commissioned as 1LT, CPT, MAJ, LTC or even COL's (on very rare occasions). This is due to their experience and education in the civilian sector. They don't yet know how to be officers in the military, but they have the technical knowledge commensurate with their rank. So, should they be treated as 1LT's are with 2LT's or should they be rendered the proper courtesy their commission has authorized them to receive?
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1LT(P) (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) sir, I honestly don't know what type of chain of command you had that lit up a butter bar for not saluting a 1LT. I would be embarrassed if I were the 1LT on whose behalf that 2LT got lit up for. I've said on this thread over and over and over that you simply CANNOT use any other rank as a comparison for these two; direct commissions are given higher ranks on the basis of their experience and because they are holding a position of higher authority among their specialty. Saying "should we treat them as a 1LT" and not salute them completely misses the point. The differences in experience and time-in-grade between 2nd and 1st are just too narrow for this to be an issue. The ONLY exception id make would be if the 1LT was a CO, because of the position. Otherwise, 1LT and 2LT are mentor/mentor but ultimately peers.
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Just a little history...
Most of our rank structure was carried over from the Continental Army:
"The Continental Army carried over the rank structure from the British Army including the subaltern ranks of lieutenant, cornet, ensign and subaltern. Continental Army subalterns ranks were supposed to wear green colored cockades in their hats. State Militias in the American Revolutionary War period had ensign and sometimes subaltern ranks, with the subaltern rank below the ensign rank where they coexisted. In 1800, the United States Army's coronet, ensign and subaltern ranks were replaced by Second lieutenant. In 1862, the United States Navy began using the ensign rank which began using a gold bar as insignia in 1922. Second lieutenants received the gold bar insignia in 1917. When the United States Air Force became a separate military branch from the Army it kept the Army's commissioned officers ranks and insignia."
So, as you can see, there was a combination of the lowest ranks in our Military... Lieutenants along with Coronets, Subalterns, and Ensigns were still given separate ranks out of necessity. In today's army as with any evolving institution, new customs and courtesies and traditions are being made. If, as some on this site wish to believe, I am able to interpret the regulations I'm to uphold and enforce, then I choose to keep the "tradition" of saluting those of whom outrank me. As a prior enlisted service member of both the army and marine corps with almost 16 yrs in, I hold discipline close to my heart. That being said, I choose to not correct a 2LT who also "chooses to interpret" the regulation like others on this thread.
P.S. I'm currently serving as an Adjutant... (TRADITIONALLY the enforcer of junior officer discipline. I suppose that would include 1LT Promotables who were selected for Captain. hmmmmmmmmm
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GySgt William Hardy
When I served in the Marine Corps there was a custom of saluting your officers only twice a day. Once in the work area in the morning and again in the afternoon when you left. If you left the work area and encountered that officer in other areas, you rendered a salute as per regulations, but as long as you were in the same work area, constant saluting was not necessary. In the Marine Corps Handbook and Marine Corps NCO Handbook, and the Marine Corps SNCO Handbook covered this custom. If you were to ask me where I got that idea from, I could show it to you. I am only asking for the same in return. Where is it stated that in the Army LTs are peers and do not have to salute each other?
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CPT (Join to see)
Lieutenants comprise two ranks. Captains comprise one rank. This "Universe" where it is accepted sure isn't Army wide, or I would have heard of it by now. Also, a simple study of Military History would show how an Adjutant was used; interesting read if you're up to it. Regardless, SFC Hardy, your absolutely right. I remember when I was in the Corps too. It was easy to find out what was right and what was wrong. The Army's single most difficult hurdle, in my opinion, was letting commanders interpret regulations that are easily followable and in no need of interpretation. I can easily recognize my role as a leader and differentiate that role from one of a "junior officer" without my feelings getting hurt because I had to salute someone with the same job as me, but just happened to out rank me. Other lieutenants should too, or we have the wrong kind of leaders in our ranks. #1 Mission Accomplishment, #2 Troop Welfare, ... #99 Officer's feelings on saluting senior officers with same job. See my point?
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CPT (Join to see)
This is getting absolutely ridiculous... smh. There are 10 different officer ranks. RANKS. Each one should salute any that is higher than the one they currently hold.
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Our apparently stirred up quite a storm here sir. It seems to be a general divide between the brass and the chevrons. When in doubt just follow the advisement of your senior NCOs and SNCOs. After all, they've been in longer than most low ranking officers and at least know the orders.
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SSgt Robert Harriott
Actually, you said that sir. I was simply stating that Officers specifically have their SNCOs for guidance who carry out their orders to the men and women under them.
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SSgt Robert Harriott
If an officer has a bad call it is the SNCOs job to advise them differently and if the officer still says it's his way, then carry it out regardless unless of course it's an unlawful order or is going to risk the safety of their unit.
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SSG Kevin McCulley
Sir, as a thought experiment what do you honestly think a platoon would do if the PSG countermanded an order from the PL? I am curious. I'm not talking about the consequences later. I mean the heat of the moment.
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I have to wonder why this is such an issue. I understand that culturally, there are places where a 2LT doesn't salute a 1LT. Great, grand, wonderful. However, there are officers on this discussion stating that there is no regulatory requirement for this. As I'm in the Army, I'll address the Army regulatory requirement. AR 600-25 para 1-5.b. is seemingly clear on the matter, "All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute.
Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of
the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps
of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service
entitled to the salute."
I am genuinely curious as to what interpretation of this excludes LTs from the requirement. I understand cultural exceptions to regulation, as we all know that each Army leader picks and chooses what regulations they feel are important and are willing to enforce. It is also quite impossible to follow all regulations, as we are always breaking at least 37 that we aren't even aware of. Regardless, this regulation is clear that 'technically', a 2LT will salute a 1LT. This makes it appear that some are protecting a tradition of non-compliance, and it is hurting the command structure overall by potentially reducing the respect that Soldiers have for their officers. If I am misunderstanding this in some way, please clear it up for all of us by discussing regulatory requirements.
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SFC Walter Mack
Sir, I don't doubt the validity of your interpretation, but as you said, it is the commander's responsibility to interpret regulation. It seems to me that this is your interpretation, and as you almost certainly have enjoyed a command at some point, and I obviously have not, I accept that your interpretation would be valid. My issue is that there is no regulatory guidance that specifically forbids LTs saluting each other either. It is a culturally accepted norm. My point was simply two-fold.
First, over the last 17 years, in many different types of units, I have seen LTs salute each other and haven't really considered it one way or the other until this post brought it to my attention. This means that it's most likely a culturally accepted norm amongst officers that they are kind enough to keep out of the enlisted arena by saluting each other when we're around. That would, I believe, promote good order and discipline.
Second, it's obvious on this forum that a rift exists within the enlisted and officer members on the subject. This demonstrates that the idea of not saluting each other may detract from good order and discipline. I'm not sure it was ever a good topic to breach in the first place, and allowing others within the organization a little too much insight into traditions with which they are not familiar could be harmful.
Also, there are officers on this forum that are actively saying they salute each other as LTs, which means it both does and does not happen in different areas around the Army.
I do appreciate the feedback Sir, and after re-reading the AR, I can see how the regulation can be interpreted both ways. I would think, however, that the idea of LTs not saluting each other would be best kept away from the awareness of the enlisted ranks.
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GySgt William Hardy
I have to side with SFC Walter M. for the moment. The distinction is between ranks, not within ranks so the example of one Captain to an other is not valid. Your premise that all Lts are the same would make you argument valid; however, if they were equal then they would be on the same pay scale and not separated. All I want to see to validate your premise is an official document that says all LTs are the same. In absence of that written documentation, I have to go by the Regulations. Does it say so in an officer's handbook? Is it written anywhere? My experience is that when changes are made, the appropriate regulation is updated quickly. No disrespect Sir, but just because a senior tells me something does not make it true. It may be an understood custom within the Officer Corps, but that still does not make it within regulation. Please, just post a reference and this topic can end.
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SFC Walter Mack
I understand that this is quite obviously a tradition amongst officers. I've never taught or been taught by any superior that this is a thing. Even the SGMs on the forum lead a consensus that enlisted personnel are completely unaware of this tradition. I see it as anything else in the Army. Right is right, but be aware of your environment. I personally see LTs as each other's peers as well, but much the way that I was a peer with other SFCs when I got promoted. While we don't salute, I had a great deal of respect for the experience gained as a senior NCO. While I was competent, the game changes at that level, and one must learn fast. A 2LT is playing a very new game, and is forced to learn the rules of their given environment very quickly. The salute should not demean the 2LT, but should simply be a way to acknowledge the experience and (hopefully) expertise of the 1LT in comparison. Still, interesting concept, but not one it seems we NCOs should be held responsible for training.
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It's one of those things... the 2LT should salute the 1LT but I don't know many who do. Warrants are supposed to salute each other, but we almost never do. My policy has always been to salute a senior when I meet them, let them tell me to knock it off, and then I don't do it again. But I also never berate WO1s for not saluting me... I do know some Warrants who do, which is correct according to the Reg... well, not berating them, saluting them.
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Not in the Army, 2LTs never salute 1LT's. There is nearly 100yrs of tradition to support this....
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Short answer is...YES. If for no other reason than thats the regulation. 1LT or not, there is a rank structure for a reason.
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