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I have been dealing with this a lot. I have seen both ways. As per AR 600–25 the junior person should salute. I see a 1LT senior to a 2LT and I salute them. I have seen many instances where this does not happen. Most see a LT as a LT regardless of being a 1st or 2nd. How do you all feel about this?
"B. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States..."
"B. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States..."
Officers
Customs and Courtesies
Army
Saluting
AR 600-25
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 1296
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Lieutenant Rosa- In the days gone by (WWII and Korea) it was custom for a 2LT to salute a 1LT. A 1LT in WWII may be a Company Commander one day and a BN XO the next. Overtime and the changes in the officer promotion system, this tradition has morphed. Now, salutes amongst LTs is like honor amongst thieves.
However, if a 1LT is you Commander, than yes, salute him and call him sir.
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I am way behind on this discussion, but the bottom line is a 2LT does not need to salute a 1LT or call him or her Ma'am or Sir. The only possible exception is when a senior 1LT is in a command position and a 2LT is a PL...then, it is appropriate to salute and call Sir or Ma'am - because of the position. (1LTs don't command very often nowadays, so it is pretty much a mute point). 2LTs get promoted to 1LT by time in service, not by any DA level or local board...just as a PVT, PV2, PFC and SPC get promoted by time, not a board. None of those junior Soldiers stands at parade rest for the senior grade Soldier until he or she becomes a SGT. That SGT gets promoted by a local board and pins on based on points. A CPT is promoted by a DA level board. No lieutenant in the Army will call a CPT by his or first name or not salute them. 2LTs and 1LTs typically have the same position and responsibility and therefore I consider them peers within my battalion. I senior rate them differently, but for professional development, I treat them the same. BTW, there is no such rank in the Army as LT...that is a Navy O3 rank.
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SFC (Join to see)
Hey SSG, I suggest you check yourself before you call out officers on moot spelling errors to emphasize your point. While we are required to remind our senior leadership what the standard is, you do so and then drive on. I would rather you spend your extra energy enforcing the standard on juniors rather than being disrespectful to seniors behind the protection of a computer screen.
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COL (Join to see)
<p>Carl, good to hear from you. Hope all is well. </p><p>SSG McCulley, thank you for your service. </p>
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SSG Kevin McCulley
SFC Anderson, please check my MOS. I'm a journalist. The English language is my bread and butter. I'm not calling anyone out. I'm pointing out something that is sometimes confused so the LTC can keep from making a mistake he may not be aware he is making. In the world of mass communication, errors like that can cause some tracts of the population to shut down to the message completely. I'm just trying to help him. Last time I checked, it is part of our job. That was as tactful as I could make it, and I did go back and forth several times.<br><br>MAJ Ballinger,<div>My understanding on the difference between doctrine & regulations is that doctrine (FM's ect...) is the suggestion and regulations are the law. The UCMJ backs this up: </div><div><br></div><div>Article 92—Failure to obey order or regulation -- <span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Verdana; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; text-decoration: inherit;">“Any person subject to this chapter who— </span><span style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; text-decoration: inherit; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px;">(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation; </span><span style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; text-decoration: inherit; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px;">(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or </span><span style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; text-decoration: inherit; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px;">(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”</span></div><div><span style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; text-decoration: inherit; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px;"><br></span></div><div><font color="#333333" face="inherit"><span style="font-size: 12px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: 18px;">I note the specific mention of regulation. This was why the Air Force changed all their Air Force Regulations to Air Force Instructions in order to give commanders the flexibility you point out is de facto in the Army. It is very </span></font><font color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px;">troubling</span></font><font color="#333333"><font face="inherit"><span style="font-size: 12px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: 18px;"> for me to hear that the Army encourages commanders to ignore and/or break the law when they deem fit. I think this is why we have such an </span></font><span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px;">integrity</span><font face="inherit"><span style="font-size: 12px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: 18px;"> issue in the press as some demonstrate the perception that the laws don't apply to them. Regulations are given the weight of law by the UCMJ. Period. If it were meant to be a suggestion, it would be in an FM. I'm no lawyer but I do know that when there are two conflicting laws passed on the same level of legislative authority, the most recently passed carries the most weight. I do not mean to quote or lecture, I am just trying to understand things. If you read my comment below on WHY I think commissioned officers look at the saluting issue in the way they do, I think you'll see I'm a bit more insightful. </span></font></font></div>
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SSG Robert Blum
I have been staying away from this whole 2LT, 1LT conversation, ocassionally reading some of the blerps that are moderately amusing or educational mostly because who cares, now days the only time a 1LT is going to tell a 2LT what to do is when said 1LT is the Company XO, or acting Commander. Other than that its last name only, or even first name depending on how close they are and whose around. This one got my attention.. SSG McCulley the first sentence of your first response, I really didnt see anything wrong with, other than the fact that it was a petty correction and wouldnt have been noticed by most,but you would have been spot on if you were reviewing an MFR or other offical document at LTC Tenpennys request. Your second sentence basicly questioned one of the Officer corps principle responsibilites, to inturpret regualtions. Then after he thanked you for the correction you drive on by attacking the Officer corps and I quote " The rules only matter when someone who holds a commission wants them to matter." and then saying "In the Enlisted Corps, we are taught these things are binary.. yes/no, on/off, legal/illegal. " implying that enlisted is better than officer. Question #1 Have you ever heard of "spirt of the Law vs. Letter of the Law? I have, and it is taught to every MP from PVT on up, Yes Laws are there to be followed, how ever there is room for inturpret the law in most cases. 18 year old PVTs have to look at a law and decide what its intended purpose is. "Spirt" and decide if theres room for inturpretation. If there is no room then the Law must be follwed and enforced as written. "letter" example, you get pulled over by a Military Policemen he/she has two options, Chew you out "Spirt", or write the citation"letter". Then theres the matter of your resposne to SFC Andersons correction. Thats a senior NCO and your going to start off by saying "Please check my MOS." I would compare to to me telling a SFC to not confuse his rank with my authority. Not a bright Idea as you may imagine. Lastly, I am not a journalist, or an english major, for some reason our goverment computers will not spell check on rally point, im on CQ, its 3 am here in Germany, and I think that despite my errors my message is understandable. SSG to SSG respond to Seniors, and Field Grade officers for sure with tact, poise, and professionalism.
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I was taught as a young 2LT to always have my right hand free in garrison. Times I had my hands full and see someone coming, I stop and set down whatever I'm carrying so I can render or return a salute. It's inconvenient sure, but respectful and the right thing to do. Same as walking to the left and rear of superiors. I think doing these small things shows the discipline of a unit and individual.
That being said, I was also taught that LTs treat each other as equals as far as salutes and addressing one another. That is unless of course, one of the LTs is a company/troop/battery commander. Not technically the correct answer, but I recommend following the co cdr's and bn cdr's guidance with respect to 2LT-1LT interactions.
My personal opinion, 2LTs should of course understand the 1LTs are more experienced and can help them out. They should keep things informal, however, in order to foster a cohesive peer group or "LT mafia"
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Absolutely!
One, it's a regulation and two, out of respect. I can remember my days as a Second Lieutenant, 37 years old and 17 years prior enlisted and with out a doubt, I would salute a First Lieutenant even if I didn't think much of him/her personally. Do not let others believe you are some egotistical "butter bar". The loss of respect form you subordinates and peers could be devastating. I certainly wouldn't respect and officer who refused to salute another based on some personal believe that here is some sort of equality there. Set the example for others to follow.
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All great replies. The only thing I do find a tad humorous, is that ID Cards state " LT " regardless if you are an O-1 or O-2, in the AF anyways.
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Sir do you expect a salute from enlisted or can we just walk pass you and not salute. Sir you are entitled to a salute and should be given one. You are required to salute an officer senior to you. It's not how we feel it is what we do. That's what separates us from everyone else as a military. Sir I don't have to like you but I have to respect the rank. The same goes for you. Would you call a SSG or SFC by his last name or would you include his rank. By reg you have too. Same applies here you don't have to like him but he is entitled to the professional courtesy.
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Honestly, I don't care what Lieutenants do behind closed doors, but if you are a senior officer, and you'll pull a 2LT to the side and chastise them for saluting a 1LT out in the open, YOU are wrong, Sir (or Ma'am).
I don't care if I think a 2LT is a complete bag of crap. If I see them out of doors, I will salute them, because it's the right thing to do.
And that 2LT that gets disrespected may eventually become a LTC who has no trust in NCOs and becomes a MicroManager (tm).
If jr. enlisted see Lieutenants not saluting each other, they may think it's okay for them not to salute the LTs... there is no double-standard in the Army.
Out in the open, if whoever I am passing outranks me, I will render a salute, because it's the right thing to do. If I outrank them, I wait for them to initiate, and I will return the salute, because it's the right thing to do.
And that 2LT that gets disrespected may eventually become a LTC who has no trust in NCOs and becomes a MicroManager (tm).
If jr. enlisted see Lieutenants not saluting each other, they may think it's okay for them not to salute the LTs... there is no double-standard in the Army.
Out in the open, if whoever I am passing outranks me, I will render a salute, because it's the right thing to do. If I outrank them, I wait for them to initiate, and I will return the salute, because it's the right thing to do.
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Why is this even a discussion? What is there to dispute? The regulation says salute. End of story. Ridiculous. It's a failure of leadership and inherited insubordination that questions like these still occur.<div><br></div><div>Should first lieutenants salute Captains? Ridiculous.</div>
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