Posted on Nov 23, 2013
Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9?
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With the military moving to a leaner, agile and more educated force, should it's top leaders be required to have a baccalaureate <span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 15px; white-space: nowrap;">degree prior to selection or prior to promotion?</span>
Education
College
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 176
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Yes. BUT that "requirement" should be relaxed during a time of sustained combat operations and for some period after afterwards. Just as the NCOES requirement was waived for a while during the height of the wars.
The Army has already identified civilian education as an important asset of developing well-rounded leaders. SSD, NCOES, and civilian education are all tools that help develop the professional Soldier.
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In what time frame, in what subject, from what college?<div><br></div><div>If i have a 4 year degree and join as a SPC and never take another class my whole career am i still on par with the E-8 who just completed his degree in the last 6 years?</div><div><br></div><div>What if my degree is in childhood education and my peers degree is in military history or counter terriorism?</div><div><br></div><div>What if 35 of my credits are gimme credits from Joes Tech College and my peer has a degree with all hours from Harvard???</div><div><br></div><div>College education does not make you a better leader and it is also not an accurate measuring stick when comparing different degrees from different colleges from different time periods. MOS proficiency tests and higher standards at NCOES schools, 1SG and SGM academies would be worth more than a college degree! Knock the TIG requirements back one year for MSG and SGM boards(or keep them), then make the academies a year long school, send the guys/gals packing that don't need to be in a leadership position and keep the ones who do.</div>
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Only if you give NCOs time like officers get. May by not a full 4 years off, but over time and with promotions, give an NCO 2 semesters....to also include that college option many commanders offer but not a lot of NCOs take advantage of.
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CSM Mike Maynard
We really don't give most officers time during Active Duty to pursue a degree, especially not "full 4 years off" like you state. They get their degree prior to commissioning and some get an opportunity to get an advanced degree in exchange for more time.
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I do not think so, life experience should count for something. The testing will cull out those who should not be in higher leadership positions. A 4 year degree is required for officer ranks, it should not be for those who enlist.
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I'm reading all the posts and I wanted to ask. What type of 4yr degree??? I'm seeing a lot of Yes and No's but what type?? Would a Coaching degree, be better then a IT for a Leader?? What about automotive. Would this be better then Amin or Business??
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Just like anything else you do in your career, if you have one before being considered, it is to your advantage. Depending on the Soldier situation, there may be times where the have missions, family, and other priorities in their life that keep them from a degree. You force Soldiers to concentrate on degree completion, when TOTAL SOLDIER CONCEPT is how they look at you on the boards.
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SSgt George Brown
Or Choice. They may be great leaders, but would rather fish than get a degree! OR do community work, or Toastmasters, or travel.
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No, Its does not increase your ability to be a leader. It does help with critical thinking and communication skills. As the CSM Maynard said below. Going to your NCO Schools and doing your best at them, will also helps with critical thinking and communication skills. But in todays Army, you need all you can get so you can get promoted. Just my 2 Cents
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SFC (Join to see)
I would have to say no... While getting a degree separates you from your peers and helps you to stand out i am in complete agreement that it does not make you a better leader. I worked for a MAJ that had his degree in Landscape Architecture. So how does him knowing how to plan out a yard or golf course help him become a leader?
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CSM Mike Maynard
I agree that the degree in and of itself won't make a better leader - it's which classes that a person takes that actually has the ability to make them a better leader - anything dealing communications, history, management, etc won't make a leader, but it will make someone better than if they hadn't taken those courses.
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This question begs another question, do the current and previous SEAs lack ability if they don't have a Bachelors?
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SGT (Join to see)
Syrian Electronic Army? Im drawing a blank on any other acronym. Trying to understand your post, but my Alabama public education is winning for now.
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MSG Quick,
Thanks for your post on my question in reference should "Should individuals receive a masters degree upon successful graduation from the USASMA?" From reviewing all the posts under your question and mine, I see this is another debate that could go on forever. The feedback from across the services and throughout the ranks is great information that I will share with my troops.
I don't feel a bachelor's degree should be a prerequisite for promotion/selection for SGM. There were some great points made by multiple senior NCOs from across the services below and under my question. I just wish there was a tailored course for MSGs and SGMs that they can compete for that awards a degree once completed. For officers selected for the US Army War College, they are awarded a Master of Strategic Studies degree. Since all officers hold a bachelors degree, this is possible. So could there be a separate college or program for our senior enlisted leaders?
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SFC A.M. Drake
CSM Maynard,
I'm going to disagree with your last comment of
"If we were all educated/trained the same, we wouldn't have that and we wouldn't be as effective as we are now."
Because as our country gets older, society has changed to where you either move up or move out (QSP/QMP Boards)(RIF's) i.e. schools, education, tough assignments or you will not be looked at favorably at the boards, meaning you will be passed up for the soldier that went the extra mile. Another example comes to mind back in the 1600's, 1700's, up until 2001. Those wars that was fought back then is certainly not fought the same fashion as now, we look back at those periods for our learning as now we know better. So the same way with our armed forces, we are smarter in how we do most things, and better trained than ever, so I believe its a natural progression to having everyone educated or at least striving to leave the Army in a better position than when we started. Because as a collective we are stronger than individually. Just my take on it.
I'm going to disagree with your last comment of
"If we were all educated/trained the same, we wouldn't have that and we wouldn't be as effective as we are now."
Because as our country gets older, society has changed to where you either move up or move out (QSP/QMP Boards)(RIF's) i.e. schools, education, tough assignments or you will not be looked at favorably at the boards, meaning you will be passed up for the soldier that went the extra mile. Another example comes to mind back in the 1600's, 1700's, up until 2001. Those wars that was fought back then is certainly not fought the same fashion as now, we look back at those periods for our learning as now we know better. So the same way with our armed forces, we are smarter in how we do most things, and better trained than ever, so I believe its a natural progression to having everyone educated or at least striving to leave the Army in a better position than when we started. Because as a collective we are stronger than individually. Just my take on it.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SFC Drake - no one is going to be QSP'd/QMP'd/Separated because they don't have a college degree.
SMA Preston's comments about degrees being great "personal" achievements and the recent changes wrt the ability to use Tuition Assistance should let you know that the Army wants you being great at your job and great at leadership FIRST. Once you're a "T" at those, then go get some college.
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SFC A.M. Drake
CSM Maynard,
I agree no one is going to get the dreaded Q's for not having a college degree, the point I was making is that as our great nation progresses then it's to be a great advantage to be ready and get that degree to remain relevant. The 600-25 in all MOS's says that getting a college degree as being a good thing, so lastly if it's in the regs for the MOS, that a college degree is needed. Then why not get it? Besides learning is a life long thing, and the only time that stops is when you pass on.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SFC Drake - I agree that taking college and pursuing a degree is a good thing. In fact, I think it's a discriminator in seeing who believes in self-improvement - so, why take away that identifier of self-improvement by making a degree mandatory.
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seems to me that if they have a 4 year collage degree they should leap frog into the officers ranks not nco because that is what you need to be an officer. all of the Master Chiefs I had in the service had been in the Navy for 25 to 30 years and still had to salute that boot ensign that had a 4 year collage degree to get that gold bar!
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