Posted on Mar 22, 2016
SFC Ken Heise
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Tell my why we should keep Soldiers in who take FOREVER with multiple attempts to qualify with their assigned weapon but chapter Soldiers out who fail TWO record APFTs in a row.

I say if you can't hit the broad side of a barn with one hand touching the barn you need to look at other avenues of employment.
Edited >1 y ago
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Responses: 58
SGT Water Treatment Nco
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No, we are not going to get rid of soldiers because they can't qualify with their assigned weapon. Instead, we should look at the "whole or complete soldier concept" and evaluate retain-ability based on ALL soldier and MOS skills & attributes. Not just one thing. I agree with your way only under certain circumstances.. like if they were infantry or in a combat environment. I just don't see the value in retaining expert marksmen or pt studs in a garrison environment. We should look at everything, especially if they are proficient in their MOS. Or.. if they enjoy pulling duty, they are a keeper (joking)
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LTC Terrence Farrier, PhD
LTC Terrence Farrier, PhD
>1 y
Yep! If leaders accept the responsibility of taxpayer dollars to train...then overcome the training offsets with mindsets and broaden the scope of the possible!
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Sgt Able Snider
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I just assumed it was a given...
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SPC Darren Koele
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I see lots of posts on this thread comparing it to failing common tasks such as Land Nav, Radio communication, etc. I don't agree with this. Rifle/Pistol qualification is as basic as it gets in the military, particularly Army and Marines. If it has been deemed the soldier received proper instruction and range time. And still can't pass, then YES, get rid of them. Simply put, as simple of task that shooting seems, some people just can't do it, for whatever reason. I went through basic in '86 when the thought of unconventional warfare seemed so extreme, it wasn't even discussed. These days, experience shows us that ANYONE is a viable target, whether a grunt on the street, or a supply clerk in a supposed secure zone. Quite frankly, if you can't shoot, you are a danger to yourself and your fellow soldier.
With all that said, I do believe there is not enough emphasis on weapons training. Most units qualify once a year and that may be the only time hey fire their weapons until next qualification. Due to drawing weapons for alerts and field exercises, I think we spent 20 times more time cleaning our weapons than shooting them. I don't know who ultimately makes that decision, or if it's budgetary reasons (I know each unit has a budget), But one would think that in order for a military unit to be considered "combat ready", they should at least know how to shoot. But nope; in our unit, a combat engineer unit, there was more emphasis placed on drip pans in the motor pool and having your boots spit shined ad uniform starched and creased than there was in marksmanship.
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SSG Information Technology Specialist
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Yes. No differently than APFT, weight, or any other standard. Unfortunately only TWO standards in the Army seem to get the attention when it comes to chaptering. Why? Because they have become easy to process as most chains of commands are well versed in it.
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SFC Ken Heise
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I appreciate the dialogue we have going on here. There is a lot of interesting perspectives on this. Keep it up.
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LTC Terrence Farrier, PhD
LTC Terrence Farrier, PhD
>1 y
SSG Heise I agree. Dialogue is always about learning. Discussion is only when people are thinking about how they are going to respond and not listening to the other. Yes...always good. Even if someone sees things differently, or have had different experiences than others, respect enough to listen (different sometimes than hearing) to their viewpoint and answering with dignity matters.
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MSgt Security Business Analyst
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Air Force Qualifications are tracked electronically. As a Former NCOIC of a Marksmanship Instructor Section, I had to document failures and how many times each person failed. I think it is still three failures and you are re classed. Some are already at the lower end of the minimum score nec. For them they are dropped from the AF. The failures have to be in a roll. If they meet the minimum standard their clock is reset.
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CPT Aaron Kletzing
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Can you graduate from basic training if you don't qualify with your weapon?
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SFC Ken Heise
SFC Ken Heise
>1 y
Sir, what about after BCT?
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SFC Ken Heise
SFC Ken Heise
>1 y
Sir, what about after BCT?
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SSG Environmental Specialist
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>1 y
In 2005 you had to qualify in Basic, but in AIT when they came out they only shot again for practice but did not have to make a the minimum score. Not sure if they changed that rule or not in TRADOC.
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TSgt Hh 60 G Maintainer
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>1 y
I went to Fort Benning for BCT and rifle and grenade qualification was required for graduation. At AIT (Fort Eustis) we went to the range and did qual fire, but I do not think it was a graduation requirement.
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PVT Wheeled Vehicle Mechanic
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One of the greatest soldiers in history refused to even carry a weapon(Desmond Doss). There’s more to the army than just killing and destroying the enemy. A soldier can be an asset for their skills in mechanics/maintenance, medical, logistics, transportation, etc. There’s plenty of people that want to break things but not enough people that want to fix or repair. That’s why we have to rely too much on civilian contractors.
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MSgt Michael Smith
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Is it really in the public's interest to throw out a soldier (with an Honorable Discharge mind you) because you don't want to take the time to conduct training? Do you have any idea how much it costs taxpayers to fully train/clothe/pay/take care of soldiers? I'll tell you...for a brand new, untrained recruit it's about $15,000 straight out of the box. Then once they are fully trained, equipped, and deployed, it is about a half million per year per soldier. Still want to throw all that money away when a couple of intensive training sessions will fix the problem?
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SFC Ken Heise
SFC Ken Heise
7 y
Why not? We throw Soldiers out who cannot pass the APFT.
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SFC Airborne Instructor (Ai)
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Separation for Unsatisfactory Performance Chapter 13, AR 635-200
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