Should a supervisor get negatively counseled if their Soldier does not make progress from an ABCP or APFT failure?

Could go either way. All situational based. Need more info. The leader could be counseled for not doing their part. For example: Supervisor fails to counsel; failed to enforce mandatory requirements with enrollment; failed to provide positive mentorship and guidance and support the process; failed to be the leader that helps the situation. As you can see there are several areas that could warrant a professional development counseling for the supervisor. We are the accountable and responsible! This means we can be held accountable for the actions and/or failures of our Soldiers. And this is my opinion as a leader. I hold myself to that standard.

This is my opinion, but I would give a qualified yes.
My reasoning: The NCO is responsible for the training and welfare of his/her subordinates. While the Soldier is responsible for how they choose to eat and what they do for PT, the NCO is responsible for developing a remedial plan and enforcing how it is carried out. If I have reason to believe that the NCO is not fulfilling those responsibilities, I will hold him/her accountable for their failure to follow up and enforce the sub-standard Soldier's PT plan.

If however the NCO does the right thing and the Soldier just up and quits, then the counseling afterwards will not be negative, but rather focus on where the NCO can improve in approach and methods in order to achieve better results next time.
You can't win them all, but you do have to try.

If this supervisor has covered all the bases with the Soldier, counseling, personally working with the Soldier during personal time, providing dietary support etc. then NO! There is a certain amount of personal drive and motivation required and if the Soldier is proven to not be motivated then it falls on the troop.

The greatest leader in the world can't do a thing for someone who just doesn't want to be led, or just doesn't care...

It depends on how the leader is running the training that was failed or if he had properly trained the soldier for the task.

Why should he? PT is said to be an individual responsibility. If your soldier got a dui should you get punished as long as you have counseling's on him and show where to go for a nutrition class then you have did your part but you should not be counseled.

It depends. did the first line leader develop a PT improvement plan and then actively supervise and counsel the Soldier on their progress, or lack of progress? If so, then I say that the leader did what they were supposed to do and the Soldier failed on their own.
If this was a Soldier who was left out in the wind to figure out how to improve on their own the leader is at faulty and should be held accountable.

SFC (Join to see) No; if the NCO is following the guidelines set by the Army for the rehabilitation of soldiers who fail these test, then no.

Just my opinion here: I also believe that it is a waste of an NCOs time to train up soldiers who do not respect being in this volunteer Army; if they want to be 180 and below, fine; help us keep the good ones, you do great things elsewhere.

R/ Steve

Yes!
And the Supervisor should be counseled if the Soldier's uniform is dirty!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier doesn't get enough sleep!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier isn't doing well academically!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier is drinking too much!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier's marriage is on the rocks!
And he/she should be counseled if he/she does not put the proper amount of Desitin on the Soldiers hiney!

Not if you documented all that you did to improve that Soldier, there's no need to hold hands here, if that Soldier does not improve, make sure you reported that course of action and proceed with more training/corrective type. after all he is your Soldier, do not give up on him.

I would say no. We are in the military, not a baby sitting service. The soldier knows the standards and it's their personal responsibility to adhere to it. Just like on APFT and Weapons. If the Soldier needs help or motivation - and the leader didn't provide that, then that's different. But, at the end of the day the soldier has to want better and do better for themselves.

NO. If the Superior is there, doing "Remedial" & giving up their personal time to enforce/help the "Soldier" try & progress to correct the deficiency, a resounding no. As I know from first hand, if the soldier, when away from the superior eats like a horse, is lazy, drinks like a fish, & doesn't give a rat's ass, they will FAIL no matter what. There is a mentality, not just the physical, in getting a soldier to pass. If they aren't in it mentally, no matter what is done to help, they are still doomed to fail due to the mindset. The supervisor cannot & should not be required to "BABYSIT" 24/7. They need to sleep/eat & have some time for other duties/R&R also. Some soldiers are just a "LOST CAUSE". No matter what you do, your SOL!

Yes

Only if it's systemic. If a team leader has 4 guys pass and 1 doesn't, who's fault? But if none in the tear pass, maybe it's a leadership problem. And that can go right up the line. It's one thing to have individual soldiers fail because an APFT still is an individual requirement. But if there is a high percentage of failures, you have to look at leaders and the training being conducted.

There are only a handful of individual tasks required for soldiers.
- Height/Weight/Bodyfat
- APFT
- Weapons Qual

Yes, that leader is responsible for TRAINING their soldiers to meet/exceed the standard. However once they have been trained, they cannot control what that soldier eats/drinks/whatever.

The answer is no.

No the supervisor should not get counseled. When the smoke clear at the end of the day, it's up to the individual regardless of rank to pass APFT. The army standard is 180. I remember in my infantry days back in 98 when I was with 1-68AR BN 3rd BCT 4th ID in Carson, my PSG set a standard where every individual in the platoon had to get a 270 or above on every APFT. I scored a 250 thinking he was joking, but 24 to 48 hours later, I had to retake another APFT to meet the 270 requirement.

Hell naaw. That's on the NCO...the subordinate NCO, that is. He/she knows the standard, and should be striving to meet it. The senior NCO is just the facilitator. If you're a career NCO and can't motivate yourself to pass APFT, major injury aside, you've got issues.

Supervisor should not get counseled as long that supervisor reacted accordingly to try to fix the problem.

It depends on what you, the leader, do for the Soldier, if do nothing and you two or more APFT failure then, YES. You should get a counseling. If they were PT Studs you'd want the to reflect on your NCOER, right?

Should only get negatively counseled if they didn't do everything in their power to assist the soldier or NCO to pass.

Building on MSG Rader's comment. I can see both arguments. If I have a Soldier that has failedin his duties to maintain what I call fighting weight/status (which is a personal responsibility), then it does fall on us to lay out a plan that he signs and agrees to in his counseling. This being said, there is not much difference between that and morning PT which is NOT designed to make us PT studs, only to maintain. Anything above maintain is TOTALLY on us. Height and Weight is TOTALLY on US. going on to your follow on, if they are an NCO, they know this even more. I am personally of the mindset that get a shorter period of time to get into standard or they lose that position of responsibility because they are not fit to lead by example.
ON the the question of the day though. If we have done all of what is expected of us by setting the paperwork in motion, then there is no progress I do not feel that it is on the leadership. The reason is this, we can show the way, we cannot hold the hand. As long as there is a clear and defined path, and there is a follow up on it, then we have done what we can and the Soldier and shown where they are on the situation.
Just my take on the matter,

again responders look at the original question you as senior leaders, should you be counselled negativelty

people in rp responding, read the thread, how far up should the counselling go

For me it remains the same. While you are correct regarding the difference of professionalism and understanding of more senior grades it is still the responsibility of the supervisor of the NCO, Officer at any grade to properly counsel and coach. If the leadership is doing so and there is record of this then it falls squarely on the individual.

No. There's a point where the soldier just won't put forth the effort. You can 'order' a soldier to do better on their PT test, but some people don't have it at some point. Is the military going to separate or send someone to military prison for not passing the PT test? Punishing a superior officer/enlisted makes no sense. This isn't WW2 Germany.

You can only motivate a soldier to a certain point but if they don't want to do it for themselves then they aren't going to no matter how much work and time you put in as an NCO. So i dont think counseling the leadership is necessary

Yes if there is not evidence of mentoring or counseling of the solider.

From what I've learned in my year hell to the yes. But, that is why I provide a plan and the soldier provides a plan because at the end of the day in his or her free time I can not make the Soldier do PT on their own. So when they fail I simply show the plan I provided and the plan they provide slap a counseling for failure to commit or go back to the counseling I gave them initially and state he/she failed to comply with Thier plan. The ball is in their court now they fail themselves rather I fail them.

It could go either way, If you have a team leader not counseling his troop or developing a plan, checking on the plan, insuring progress, then his whole chain can be counseled. Squad leader for not checking team leaders, PSG for not checking SL's... etc. Personal Responsibility. If the soldier fails to make ht/wt or fails pt tests. Reduction in rank, followed by processing to be released. An initial counseling should cover all expectations.

I've mentioned this elsewhere on the site however for any svc mbrs having trouble losing weight look at http://www.portioncontroller.com a nonsurgical double belt external lap band that's Medicare approved. I honestly don't know if it's been evald by the svcs however it got me down from 342 lbs to about 255 lbs or so in about 6 mos to a yr, though it needs to be evald and fitted only by trained clinicians not the wearer under any circumstances whatsoever hope the info is of use, be grateful for any thoughts or feedback, it's not a panacea of course, though knowing about it my wife and I thought might just help that's all honest.