Posted on Apr 20, 2016
Should a supervisor get negatively counseled if their Soldier does not make progress from an ABCP or APFT failure?
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To add onto my original question. Would the circumstances change if the Soldier was an NCO, possibly a mid-career NCO who knows by now their individual responsibilities and the Army standards. Should that NCO's supervisor get negatively counseled? How far up the ranks would it end? Would a Master Sergeant (E8) get a negative counseling for their subordinate? Would an Officer?
Battalion S1 Personnel NCOIC
SSG
Leadership
Mentorship
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 44
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Could go either way. All situational based. Need more info. The leader could be counseled for not doing their part. For example: Supervisor fails to counsel; failed to enforce mandatory requirements with enrollment; failed to provide positive mentorship and guidance and support the process; failed to be the leader that helps the situation. As you can see there are several areas that could warrant a professional development counseling for the supervisor. We are the accountable and responsible! This means we can be held accountable for the actions and/or failures of our Soldiers. And this is my opinion as a leader. I hold myself to that standard.
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PFC Daniel Starrett
The only thing I would add to this is that you look at the leader in question, follow the checklist that MSG Marshall Rader just gave and see if the leader did everything they were supposed to do and or more. If the leader did everything correctly, then the moment you discipline the leader, you are guilty of harassment and possibly even abuse, because the leader did nothing wrong. Now, if the leader failed to counsel the soldier when the solider failed their pt tests, then by all means you counsel the leader for failure to counsel. If the leader failed to reccommend the soldier being flagged, look at the situation and see whats going on. If it is a repeat offense for example, counsel the leader; if the soldier failing, just finished their recovery time after having surgery and the leader decided to give them a second chance the following week? Listen to your leader; you made him your leader because he knows what he is doing and he knows his soldiers better than you do.
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This is my opinion, but I would give a qualified yes.
My reasoning: The NCO is responsible for the training and welfare of his/her subordinates. While the Soldier is responsible for how they choose to eat and what they do for PT, the NCO is responsible for developing a remedial plan and enforcing how it is carried out. If I have reason to believe that the NCO is not fulfilling those responsibilities, I will hold him/her accountable for their failure to follow up and enforce the sub-standard Soldier's PT plan.
If however the NCO does the right thing and the Soldier just up and quits, then the counseling afterwards will not be negative, but rather focus on where the NCO can improve in approach and methods in order to achieve better results next time.
You can't win them all, but you do have to try.
My reasoning: The NCO is responsible for the training and welfare of his/her subordinates. While the Soldier is responsible for how they choose to eat and what they do for PT, the NCO is responsible for developing a remedial plan and enforcing how it is carried out. If I have reason to believe that the NCO is not fulfilling those responsibilities, I will hold him/her accountable for their failure to follow up and enforce the sub-standard Soldier's PT plan.
If however the NCO does the right thing and the Soldier just up and quits, then the counseling afterwards will not be negative, but rather focus on where the NCO can improve in approach and methods in order to achieve better results next time.
You can't win them all, but you do have to try.
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MSG (Join to see)
1sg the question here is should you be counselled, for the continued failure, i think not, we have the regs and programs that guide us, we are responsible for our troops, but if you do all that is neccessary and snuffy cant do it, is that a bad on you, as senior ncos we uphold the regs not the sms personnal life or motivation to succeed, we cant save them all then thats where we step in, dont micromanage, let your juniors do there job if it doesnt work find out why and then correct, one of my biggerst problems was trying to correct diffiencies that could'nt be corrected, sometimes you just gotta cut loose, and get ride of the bad apple follow regs and do what is needed
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If this supervisor has covered all the bases with the Soldier, counseling, personally working with the Soldier during personal time, providing dietary support etc. then NO! There is a certain amount of personal drive and motivation required and if the Soldier is proven to not be motivated then it falls on the troop.
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1SG (Join to see)
Spot on CSM. At some point, Soldiers must be held accountable for their individual actions/performance. As long as the NCO has made every effort to ensure the Soldier's success, they should not be negatively impacted by a Soldier that makes a conscious decision to be substandard.
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The greatest leader in the world can't do a thing for someone who just doesn't want to be led, or just doesn't care...
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CSM (Join to see)
Indeed. I have seen Soldiers fail two record APFTs on purpose so they would get separated. They know their characterization of service will be honorable so they figure they have nothing to lose.
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It depends on how the leader is running the training that was failed or if he had properly trained the soldier for the task.
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Why should he? PT is said to be an individual responsibility. If your soldier got a dui should you get punished as long as you have counseling's on him and show where to go for a nutrition class then you have did your part but you should not be counseled.
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It depends. did the first line leader develop a PT improvement plan and then actively supervise and counsel the Soldier on their progress, or lack of progress? If so, then I say that the leader did what they were supposed to do and the Soldier failed on their own.
If this was a Soldier who was left out in the wind to figure out how to improve on their own the leader is at faulty and should be held accountable.
If this was a Soldier who was left out in the wind to figure out how to improve on their own the leader is at faulty and should be held accountable.
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1SG (Join to see)
Center mass CSM! Soldiers are taught fitness & HT/WT standards from the time they go to BCT. NCOs are required to mentor/coach/help but success or failure of an individual task ultimately falls to each Soldier.
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SFC (Join to see) No; if the NCO is following the guidelines set by the Army for the rehabilitation of soldiers who fail these test, then no.
Just my opinion here: I also believe that it is a waste of an NCOs time to train up soldiers who do not respect being in this volunteer Army; if they want to be 180 and below, fine; help us keep the good ones, you do great things elsewhere.
R/ Steve
Just my opinion here: I also believe that it is a waste of an NCOs time to train up soldiers who do not respect being in this volunteer Army; if they want to be 180 and below, fine; help us keep the good ones, you do great things elsewhere.
R/ Steve
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Yes!
And the Supervisor should be counseled if the Soldier's uniform is dirty!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier doesn't get enough sleep!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier isn't doing well academically!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier is drinking too much!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier's marriage is on the rocks!
And he/she should be counseled if he/she does not put the proper amount of Desitin on the Soldiers hiney!
And the Supervisor should be counseled if the Soldier's uniform is dirty!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier doesn't get enough sleep!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier isn't doing well academically!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier is drinking too much!
And he/she should be counseled if the Soldier's marriage is on the rocks!
And he/she should be counseled if he/she does not put the proper amount of Desitin on the Soldiers hiney!
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CSM Michael Poll
out of all of these, the physical fitness of a Soldier is the leaders responsibility as they are the ones who schedule and administer that individuals fitness program.... these others are the Soldiers personal responsibility
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SCPO Jason McLaughlin
CSM Michael Poll - So an Army supervisor has the responsibility to develop individualized physical fitness and dietary plans for everyone he/she leads?
Or is the supervisor responsible for fostering an environment where the physical fitness program for the unit, if adhered to with a proper diet, would result in a high unit level of physical fitness?
Or is the supervisor responsible for fostering an environment where the physical fitness program for the unit, if adhered to with a proper diet, would result in a high unit level of physical fitness?
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Not if you documented all that you did to improve that Soldier, there's no need to hold hands here, if that Soldier does not improve, make sure you reported that course of action and proceed with more training/corrective type. after all he is your Soldier, do not give up on him.
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I would say no. We are in the military, not a baby sitting service. The soldier knows the standards and it's their personal responsibility to adhere to it. Just like on APFT and Weapons. If the Soldier needs help or motivation - and the leader didn't provide that, then that's different. But, at the end of the day the soldier has to want better and do better for themselves.
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NO. If the Superior is there, doing "Remedial" & giving up their personal time to enforce/help the "Soldier" try & progress to correct the deficiency, a resounding no. As I know from first hand, if the soldier, when away from the superior eats like a horse, is lazy, drinks like a fish, & doesn't give a rat's ass, they will FAIL no matter what. There is a mentality, not just the physical, in getting a soldier to pass. If they aren't in it mentally, no matter what is done to help, they are still doomed to fail due to the mindset. The supervisor cannot & should not be required to "BABYSIT" 24/7. They need to sleep/eat & have some time for other duties/R&R also. Some soldiers are just a "LOST CAUSE". No matter what you do, your SOL!
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Only if it's systemic. If a team leader has 4 guys pass and 1 doesn't, who's fault? But if none in the tear pass, maybe it's a leadership problem. And that can go right up the line. It's one thing to have individual soldiers fail because an APFT still is an individual requirement. But if there is a high percentage of failures, you have to look at leaders and the training being conducted.
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There are only a handful of individual tasks required for soldiers.
- Height/Weight/Bodyfat
- APFT
- Weapons Qual
Yes, that leader is responsible for TRAINING their soldiers to meet/exceed the standard. However once they have been trained, they cannot control what that soldier eats/drinks/whatever.
The answer is no.
- Height/Weight/Bodyfat
- APFT
- Weapons Qual
Yes, that leader is responsible for TRAINING their soldiers to meet/exceed the standard. However once they have been trained, they cannot control what that soldier eats/drinks/whatever.
The answer is no.
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No the supervisor should not get counseled. When the smoke clear at the end of the day, it's up to the individual regardless of rank to pass APFT. The army standard is 180. I remember in my infantry days back in 98 when I was with 1-68AR BN 3rd BCT 4th ID in Carson, my PSG set a standard where every individual in the platoon had to get a 270 or above on every APFT. I scored a 250 thinking he was joking, but 24 to 48 hours later, I had to retake another APFT to meet the 270 requirement.
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Hell naaw. That's on the NCO...the subordinate NCO, that is. He/she knows the standard, and should be striving to meet it. The senior NCO is just the facilitator. If you're a career NCO and can't motivate yourself to pass APFT, major injury aside, you've got issues.
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Supervisor should not get counseled as long that supervisor reacted accordingly to try to fix the problem.
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It depends on what you, the leader, do for the Soldier, if do nothing and you two or more APFT failure then, YES. You should get a counseling. If they were PT Studs you'd want the to reflect on your NCOER, right?
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Should only get negatively counseled if they didn't do everything in their power to assist the soldier or NCO to pass.
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