Posted on Apr 9, 2017
MAJ Telecommunications Systems Engineer
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Some officers are meant to command and lead, and others probably should never be allowed the opportunity. I'm a witness to the case of an ousted ex-commander now working as a staff-O "leading" a highly technical department - his lack of technical competence and inability to mentor and lead others is obvious. Should such an officer be "encouraged" to separate or retire early to make room?
Posted in these groups: 200210106b CommandGeneral of the army rank insignia OfficerDod color DoD
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CWO4 Frank Williams
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It would depend on the reason for relief. Misconduct yes he should be put out. If someone in his charge screwed up and he was the scapegoat he should stay. Just my humble opinion.
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PO3 Hospital Corpsman (Hm)
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This is way above my paygrade. Just give us leaders that we want to be like/follow and we trust. The reat will fall into place.
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Sgt Christina Biscontin
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I was AF in the 80's and had a commander that was actually anti military member and pro dependent. no matter what happened the military member was always wrong. had a friend who's wife was a slush, one night she wanted another drink, her husband kept trying to get the waitress attention, and wife got mad it was taking so long and stabbed him in arm. there was 6 other people at the table, all their stories matched the husbands, but commander said obviously he did something for her to stab him. then my spouse(ex now thank god) they did not go with me to Italy, stayed in LA, I found out they were using coke so I went to legal and asked them, What is the minimum I have to send my spouse in dependent support? they said for my pay grade it was like $69.00 so next stop finance and decreased my allotment. few weeks later my commander pulls me in ask whats going on, so I explained that I found out they were on coke and I was not going to finance their drug usage. He goes off saying how 69 bucks isn't enough and then orders me to increase it. I told him, I respectfully must disobey that order since I talked to legal and this meets my legal obligation. OMG after that he was watching me with a micro scope, so bad that his own commanders offered to go after him at first I said no it's ok I'll deal with it ,, but eventually they had had enough and reassigned him to go fly propeller weather planes in Greenland(he was a jet pilot before making commander) and black marked him so he could never command a unit again. of course he quit after being in greenland for 4-5 months lol
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PO2 Scott Fahsbender
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I think it depends on the individual and why he or she was relieved. There are many cases where people may be relieved that don’t have anything to do with their ability to lead. It could have been an error caused by technical knowledge gaps, or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Before I got to my boat, the previous captain had been relieved after a collision with a freighter while we were coming to periscope depth. There wasn’t a single member of the crew who thought it was the skipper’s fault, but it’s his responsibility, so he got relieved. I heard nothing but wonderful things about him, and he’s now an Admiral. It wouldn’t have been right to force him out of the service for that. That being said, as soon as you start to treat each scenario differently, politics now have the ability to be played. If that bad leader has a friend in the right place, it can protect that poor leader from the appropriate action being taken. It’s a tough spot.
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MSgt Christopher Soltysik
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Depends if the good ole boys relieved them or if they were relieved for cause.
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LTC Joseph Bost
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Depends on what you mean by “ousted”.......if he was relieved of command, no.
But in 31 years of active Army service, ( enlisted, warrant, commissioned) followed by 14 years as an Army DoD senior civilian, I have not seen an officer relieved of command promoted. A few shunted
( parked) to positions temporarily until their fate is determined. The Army is too small to have 1 trick ponies.....officers that failed at leadership. My experience, my opinion.
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PO1 Glen Cook
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This is a TSA issue as well.
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PFC Bill Herman
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Edited 7 y ago
I was in the Corps and then worked for DOD after college. I saw often Officers who should have been flunked out early, or at least not given or keeping some of the important jobs they get, have.
But DOD seems to think all Officers and many NCOs have to be moved along and placed in such jobs they are not good at. Some ask not to be transferred, they know they are not ready or every will be, but DOD does not care. Why, one main reason is they are all "fodder" and so if they fail, so what. Then they can always be replaced with good or more fodder.
I remember one of the best Marines I ever met, he managed to stay in going for his 20, as a well Decorated Combat Vet. He said that's all he ever wanted, no NCO responsibilities, just wanted to stay at the basic PFC or no more than a Corporal level. Last I saw he was a Corporal (for about the 3rd time) and had only 2 or 3 years to go. I suspect he made it, he had that type of can do attitude.
So many get flunky promotions that do no one any good, and so some bad ones that could have been great PFCs or 1st Lts for 20 years get booted. LOL, This system is funny stupid.
People work in civilian jobs for 20, 30, 40 years without ever getting promoted and companies do great with them. They get basic raises don't want to be Foremen, leaders. in charge of anything but their basic job.
Oh well, this is the Military.
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Sgt Art Ferris
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Find another command and a non leadership role. Sometimes you rise to the level of your incompetence, not the soldiers fault.
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MAJ Telecommunications Systems Engineer
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And, here I thought the discussion on this question (which I posted about a year ago) was done and over with! :) The recent attention paid to this topic by the RP community hints at the deep chords struck in fellow current and former service members with prior experiences similar to mine. Although I may not be as deeply involved in this round of discussions on this topic, I will check in and comment as time allows.
Thanks to the RP community for keeping this discussion interesting and civil!
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CMSgt Wesley Hudson
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Situational
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SGT Human Resources Specialist
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No they shouldn't serve, once they do something to lose a command they should be kicked out. Give them the same treatment they give to lower enlisted.
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PO2 Karl Lehn
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I've always thought up or out was counterproductive. Some people are better for example E5 rather than E6 and up. Some don't want to be LPO or LCPO or CMC
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SFC Mark Biggs
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It has never ceased to amaze me how many commissioned officers continually reveal their total lack of fitness to lead and command. Usually these folks are weeded out by the time they would be promoted to captain, but there are still a few field-grade officers who have squeaked through multiple bad OERs. The incompetent technical officer is an embarrassment. The incompetent commanding officer is dangerous. Both need to become civilians.
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SPC Jason Hamilton
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As for the original question, too complex to answer. Grant, Patton, Billy Mitchell and others have been relieved of command, but turned out to be some of our finest combat officers
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SPC Jason Hamilton
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My observation in the Army was that we needed to take a more British approach to service. There you can (could) retire as a corporal. Some people are great soldiers, seamen, airmen, highly competent but not leaders. The civilian world recognizes this, but the military does not. We used to have spec7 ranks and wider use of warrant officers. This would be appropriate to return to so that long time field experts can remain without the difficulty of leadership for those who are not good at it or disinclined to lead
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SGT Phelan Hoover
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That is very true, the officer shouldn't be put in a role if they cant lead or lack those skills. A couple of things they could do strengthen Officer Canidate School (OCS) when they first come in. Even though they have a degree, I've heard that it is kind of weak. Or a mix of both Non-Commissioners courses and Officer courses, to again strengthen leadership capacity. Then finally, if they do fail or fall short instread of forcing retirement, build specialized training program for officers for "That" general realtive area that they failed at, why they failed and overhaul of what to do to fix the problem. If it still is a problem, no more leadership positions and more filling the gaps of what the Army needs until retirement or descisions to get out.
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Maj Sean Barnes
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Hard call as a officer I have worked for some great commanders and some real weasels. S pattern of good technical ability and ok leadership..... ok not a big picture person. What about a terrible technical person but a good motivator.....? Or terrible all the way around.????
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PFC Delbert Gegelman
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If relieved from command because of incompetences. Then yes but, if allowed to stay, strip the commission from him, if the incompetence was reason for personnel failures.
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SFC Michael F. Lombardi
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As an example: I would rather see an E-4 mechanic stay as a professional soldier mechanic with increasing pay, stay as an E-4 if he/she is happy with that. Not every technician is leadership material. I had a friend ETS because the 1SG wanted him to go back to SGT Promotion Board. This soldier intentionally blew the board because didn’t want the responsibility. The Army lost an exceptional mechanic!

Ps: he operates a profitable garage with his wife and daughter doing the business end.
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