Posted on Mar 15, 2016
Should I report unprofessional behavior through the Chain of Command or an IG complaint?
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NOTE: Member wished to be disassociated from this subject so it has been reposted here with the original comments.
Thank you,
-RP Staff
Recently was involved in an one way exchange with a CPT in which she directed towards a Senior NCO (SFC) in a derogatory, belittling and denigrating expressing her personal feelings toward such SFC. Since this is to get get a general consensus of what should be done, I would like to leave out names and places out but can include that the CPT's comments towards the SFC included: "you are a sorry a$$ excuse of an NCO", " you are the biggest piece of $hit I know" and continued to go on not just about such Senior NCO but included the family members.
Considering that if this was a lower to an NCO doing this, the Soldier would be crucified. If this was an NCO to an officer?, someone would be out of a job.
I heard one day that the moment you lose your bearing you lost the argument. So the SFC did the right thing by keeping professionally quiet and bringing up to the supervisor. Situation is now: such CPT has gone around telling Soldiers how "she ripped in to this SFC with a grin"...
What would be some appropriate ways to handle this situation?
Thank you,
-RP Staff
Recently was involved in an one way exchange with a CPT in which she directed towards a Senior NCO (SFC) in a derogatory, belittling and denigrating expressing her personal feelings toward such SFC. Since this is to get get a general consensus of what should be done, I would like to leave out names and places out but can include that the CPT's comments towards the SFC included: "you are a sorry a$$ excuse of an NCO", " you are the biggest piece of $hit I know" and continued to go on not just about such Senior NCO but included the family members.
Considering that if this was a lower to an NCO doing this, the Soldier would be crucified. If this was an NCO to an officer?, someone would be out of a job.
I heard one day that the moment you lose your bearing you lost the argument. So the SFC did the right thing by keeping professionally quiet and bringing up to the supervisor. Situation is now: such CPT has gone around telling Soldiers how "she ripped in to this SFC with a grin"...
What would be some appropriate ways to handle this situation?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 258
I would break this down into a few different issues rather than respond to the whole thing in one shot, as I see three different behaviors here that could be of concern.
First off, cursing / loss of bearing. Most officers at one point in their careers have encountered situations where they have lost their bearings. Sometimes it's deserved, even if it's not the most effective means of correcting someone. I used language like that one time to an E6...after he was caught doing drugs in the barracks with his subordinate troops. I don't regret it. I believe GEN Mattis once lamented on the use of cursing to get troops attention and put added emphasis on a statement. I don't have an issue with cursing in general, but it's like many other things, in moderation it's okay, but not in excess. That type of cursing in a dress-down in front of an audience is bad judgement regardless.
Second behavior...degrading the NCO. There's a difference between cursing while correcting someone, and what is presented here. This was not a correction but a tear-down. There are exceptions to the rule, but 99% of the time this is toxic to the unit and shouldn't be tolerated. If the recipient of the tear-down did something that was so absolutely egregious (rape, dealing drugs to troops, other serious felonies, etc) to where he's on the short-track out of the service, then maybe I wouldn't make a huge deal out of it, but it should have been behind closed doors, and done by the CDR. If this wasn't the case here, and I don't get the feeling it was, then it was absolutely uncalled for and accomplished nothing.
Third behavior...the CPT smirking and telling others she ripped the guy after the fact...and doing so in earshot of others....uncalled for and unprofessional, regardless of the backstory.
So, long story short, there's enough of concern here regardless of the history that I'd recommend doing something with it. I'd recommend bringing it up to the CSM if you're enlisted. CSM will most likely bring in the Bn CDR. The Bn CDR will have a more complete picture of the CPT and is in the best position to determine if the Army is best served by correcting / mentoring the CPT, or if the situation merits a 15-6 investigation with potentially more severe repercussions.
First off, cursing / loss of bearing. Most officers at one point in their careers have encountered situations where they have lost their bearings. Sometimes it's deserved, even if it's not the most effective means of correcting someone. I used language like that one time to an E6...after he was caught doing drugs in the barracks with his subordinate troops. I don't regret it. I believe GEN Mattis once lamented on the use of cursing to get troops attention and put added emphasis on a statement. I don't have an issue with cursing in general, but it's like many other things, in moderation it's okay, but not in excess. That type of cursing in a dress-down in front of an audience is bad judgement regardless.
Second behavior...degrading the NCO. There's a difference between cursing while correcting someone, and what is presented here. This was not a correction but a tear-down. There are exceptions to the rule, but 99% of the time this is toxic to the unit and shouldn't be tolerated. If the recipient of the tear-down did something that was so absolutely egregious (rape, dealing drugs to troops, other serious felonies, etc) to where he's on the short-track out of the service, then maybe I wouldn't make a huge deal out of it, but it should have been behind closed doors, and done by the CDR. If this wasn't the case here, and I don't get the feeling it was, then it was absolutely uncalled for and accomplished nothing.
Third behavior...the CPT smirking and telling others she ripped the guy after the fact...and doing so in earshot of others....uncalled for and unprofessional, regardless of the backstory.
So, long story short, there's enough of concern here regardless of the history that I'd recommend doing something with it. I'd recommend bringing it up to the CSM if you're enlisted. CSM will most likely bring in the Bn CDR. The Bn CDR will have a more complete picture of the CPT and is in the best position to determine if the Army is best served by correcting / mentoring the CPT, or if the situation merits a 15-6 investigation with potentially more severe repercussions.
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MSG Franklin Mclelland
You kind of left out the family part. I am infantry of 26 1/2yrs. Had I been in this E7s shoes, she would have been knocked out for verbally attacking my family. Attack me, fine; attack my family and someone is going to the hospital.
They're is a lot left to the imagination here, like the back story and what type unit this is. Also, any NCOs or other officers standing by should have stepped in. What she did warranted it.
They're is a lot left to the imagination here, like the back story and what type unit this is. Also, any NCOs or other officers standing by should have stepped in. What she did warranted it.
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If I were that CPTs supervisor, would pull that officer aside and give her the run down on how officers under my command are expected to act. She would be in my office, standing in front of my desk at the position of attention. I'd tell her that her conduct is well be low my expectations of an officer of her rank and that her decorum is severely lacking. I'd go on to say that if she didn't like what I was saying then she could take her objections up the chain of command and that I'd be happy to provide the next commander in the chain a letter explaining the situation. As a matter of fact, I'd offer her the opportunity to call my commander and that I'd be happy to dial the phone for her. Finally, I'd provide her the opportunity to excel by having her come to my officer for a couple of Saturdays so that I could properly train her in professional courtesy and bearing.
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That behavior, right there, needs an immediate correction. "Ma'am, will you please join me in the hall?" Followed by "Ma'am, would you please accompany me to discuss this with the commander?" Followed by "Ma'am, if you choose not to accompany me...I'll ask the Chief Master Sergeant/Master CPO/Sgt Maj/First Sgt to find you. If you still won't accompany us voluntarily, then we will have the discussion without you present."
The conversation in the room is to discuss the history and the job of a SNCO. I was a similar situation and had a frank/respectful discussion the commander the situation and at the same time held myself accountable while holding the commander responsible for his officers. "Sir, I understand my rank and what is expected of me...have I failed in that? If I have, then maybe we need to discuss future role changes or remedial training. If not, then it is NOT possible for me to lead my soldier/sailors/airmen/marines, when this is how the O-3 belittles me publicly. This is not the first time it has happened and it appears to be a personality conflict. If so, I'd like to fix this now. This destroys the trust and bond that I have formed with my men and women. It will be impossible for me to carry out my duties. In addition, this is an officer. She is an example to the junior enlisted. If she mistreats her SNCO's publicly, then the NCOs and junior enlisted will think that behavior is tolerated or encouraged. She sets the example, and she is not performing as an officer and a lady."
An O-3 is an officer and the rank must be respected. But there is a delicate balance there for that O-3. If she insults the SFC publicly, the effect is pretty poisonous to an organization. Both, the SFC and the CPT, will pay for this. Some will take sides and unit cohesion suffers. The Colonel/CAPT will be very interested on making sure that this doesn't happen.
Expect and apology from that Captain.
The conversation in the room is to discuss the history and the job of a SNCO. I was a similar situation and had a frank/respectful discussion the commander the situation and at the same time held myself accountable while holding the commander responsible for his officers. "Sir, I understand my rank and what is expected of me...have I failed in that? If I have, then maybe we need to discuss future role changes or remedial training. If not, then it is NOT possible for me to lead my soldier/sailors/airmen/marines, when this is how the O-3 belittles me publicly. This is not the first time it has happened and it appears to be a personality conflict. If so, I'd like to fix this now. This destroys the trust and bond that I have formed with my men and women. It will be impossible for me to carry out my duties. In addition, this is an officer. She is an example to the junior enlisted. If she mistreats her SNCO's publicly, then the NCOs and junior enlisted will think that behavior is tolerated or encouraged. She sets the example, and she is not performing as an officer and a lady."
An O-3 is an officer and the rank must be respected. But there is a delicate balance there for that O-3. If she insults the SFC publicly, the effect is pretty poisonous to an organization. Both, the SFC and the CPT, will pay for this. Some will take sides and unit cohesion suffers. The Colonel/CAPT will be very interested on making sure that this doesn't happen.
Expect and apology from that Captain.
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The SFC should go to his First Sergeant, who should in turn take the matter up with the Battalion Sergeant Major. Let the Sergeant Major bring to the battalion commander's attention the conduct of one of his officers. If everyone is doing their, jobs this will be your best remedy. If people start putting their careers over the care of their soldiers, in the long run everyone is going to suffer.
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1SG Patrick Sims
TIM---Going to the Brigade CO could be a problem----If the Battalion Sergeant Major is a weak sister and won't do anything, going over his head to Brigade could cause the entire company problems---He could resent Brigade telling him to do his job, and take it out on the entire company to get at the 1st Sergeant. I went through this bullshit with a Battalion Sergeant Major who was a career man, and a Division Sergeant Major who had more stories than Doctor Souse.
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If you look at the typical IG charters, personal conduct isn't in their swim lane. Besides the IG has no line authority. If they get the complaint, they shove it over to the CoC. Problem is it gets shoved over to the front office hence bypassing much of the CoC. Nothing like having the front office ding downwards on this stuff catching some good NCOs and JOs off guard who might have been your best advocate. A good SEL should make sure all the ENLs understand the complaint redress process and what goes into what puka. You don't want to become the problem by working the system sideways. BTW, thinking back on things, 2/3rds or more of the officer/NCO job firings I did were over personal conduct, i.e. they treated people like crap. Great morale booster overall when you trim the bad apples.
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1SG (Join to see)
The UCMJ covers Maltreatment of a Soldier and that is part of the duty of the Office of the Inspector General, to ensure that Soldiers are treated fairly and with dignity and respect (I, as a Drill Sergeant, was on the receiving end of that conversation, for raising hell with a permanent party Marine that was engaged in a relationship with a trainee). Article 93 is tough to get around and after they investigate the allegation, they pass their findings down to the COC with recommendation, while simultaneously passing it UP the chain of command for review. I have road that horse. It was found that my actions warranted the response that I gave. It was after the Sex scandal at APG!
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CCMSgt (Join to see)
"Nature of act. The cruelty, oppression, or maltreatment, although not necessarily physical, must be measured by an objective standard. Assault, improper punishment, and sexual harassment may constitute this offense. Sexual harassment includes influencing, offering to influence, or threatening the career, pay, or job of another person in exchange for sexual favors, and deliberate or repeated offensive comments or gestures of a sexual nature. The imposition of necessary or proper duties and the exaction of their performance does not constitute this offense even though the duties are arduous or hazardous or both."
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CW4 Tim Claus
1SG (Join to see) - Lack of direct authority is the primary problem here. The IG can fact find, but they still need to forward the details to the CoC for legal authority for action.
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I am truly amazed by some of these comments that are being posted by STAFF SERGEANT's and above. NCO's begin their comments with, I don't know what regulation covers this and that, or not sure if the CPT's actions are justified.. I don't care who you are nor do I care what Rank you are, you do not have the right to disrespect Soldiers or NCO's for that matter. And the SSG that initiated this post, why are you posting this when you should be reporting this???
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SFC (Join to see)
the system is broke, but the senior needs to discuss the situation with another senior if he/she don't trust chain of command and let another senior help. Bottom line, NCO's needs to take care other NCO's.. And this should never take place..
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MSgt Michael Gaddis
SFC Smith...you didn't read the entire post. The SSG who posted this is site admin. He posted it for the originating poster as the originating poster didn't wanted to remain anonymous.
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Okay, while everyone tries to come up with "appropriate" ways to handle this I'll relate a sort of kind of similar experience and how it was handled. A LTjg (O-2) said to a PO1 at quarters before the CO and XO showed up "Did you roll in the mud this morning? You are a disgrace. How did you make 1st class?" The first class popped to attention and yelled out (think of boot camp) "SIR ! I have no clue how I made 1st class petty officer being the disgraceful piece of sh*t I am that got dragged up here while working on a piece of equipment that has to work or we don't go to sea and the captain would be in hot water for missing an assigned deployment. SIR!"
Yeh. LTjg didn't say much after that.
Yeh. LTjg didn't say much after that.
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I would definitely go directly to my chain of command right after I render a proper salute and exit stage left. My 1SG will be informed, and then on. It's one thing to give me a well deserved a** chewing behind closed doors. But once you cross that line of professionalism, and use profane language towards me, you are being out right disrespectful, regardless of what rank either of us is wearing. And then to even think about mentioning my family.....when a "leader" uses their personal feelings towards a fellow Soldier, they are no longer, at least in my opinion, a leader.
So, if going to the COC does nothing, then my next step is IG.
So, if going to the COC does nothing, then my next step is IG.
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First and foremost, I tip my hat to this NCO for maintaining his composure and bearing. A sign of a true professional. I, personally, would first address this situation with my 1SG and BN CSM. I have yet to meet a CSM that would just let something like this slide. I would almost guarantee this CPT would have an appointment with the BN Commander very shortly after.
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1SG (Join to see)
If the CSM is on his game, he'd pay this Captain a visit and ask about what he'd "heard rumors of". If the CPT is what we think she is with the story as presented, she will continue to spout off to the Sergeant Major.
Big mistake.
Big mistake.
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This is typical of someone who has been promoted beyond their professional ability, it seems to me it is all about power and a "what are you going to do about it" attitude. The best type leaders are actually servants to their troops (doing their best to uplift them, and motivate with wisdom). It is most unfortunate when vindictiveness is elevated beyond the general welfare of the troops, but not uncommon nowadays. It is not uncommon in my experience that many junior grade officers feel they need to "prove something" about who they are (so to speak) by tearing down another within the "pecking order" of the garrison. Yet this could be quite deadly when one's life depends on upon unit cohesion within the company say while in harms way.
I have also seen NCO's have officers reprimanded for "unbecoming behavior from an officer", but it must be done precariously and precisely via proper channels.
I was once asked to testify by my direct officer, about the behavior of another officer in my unit, but was advised not to do so by my first sergeant - because of repercussions on me under the UCMJ.
I have also seen NCO's have officers reprimanded for "unbecoming behavior from an officer", but it must be done precariously and precisely via proper channels.
I was once asked to testify by my direct officer, about the behavior of another officer in my unit, but was advised not to do so by my first sergeant - because of repercussions on me under the UCMJ.
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Sounds like the O is putting her nose in 1SG's business ...and any 1SG worth his/her salt isn't going to tolerate it for an instant. I actually witnessed a 1SG tell a "butter bar" to keep his "officer's nose" out of his first sergeant's business ...of course that was a future Ranger Hall of Fame Inductee telling off the officer so these kind of guys are few and far between.
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Had the same problem with a LT. before I retired I noted everything he did then took a trip over to the command master chiefs office and had a long discussion with him about this LT. The master chief noticed I was about three months out from retiring so he gave me tad orders to his office and the reason for this is because he knew as well as I did this LT just out right hated me for no good reason. it only took three weeks after I was gone for this LT to get relived this guy just stepped on his own dick. So I suggest you follow your chain of command it is always your best corse of action
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Taking a little different approach to this than others. I don't think we have a good situation understanding/awareness. Is this a reserve unit or active duty? What is the professional relationship to the officer? In the chain of command? Why are you comparing the officer's action to and NCO doing the same to an officer (or lower enlisted to NCO)? That's apples and oranges. Is the NCO actually a sorry excuse? What was the reference to family? You have others quotes, but none reference to that. Family is obviously off limits, but want to confirm the truth to it. Seems like an add on statement. Was the initial incident in private or public?
So, we have one side of the sorry. It's important to get a good SU. I've seen before of privates butthurt about an NCO making a legitimate correction, taking the complaint to the commander, and a knee jerk reaction to reprimand a good NCO.
Assuming this is true, which could be as I've seen in the past, here are some option:
-Regardless, first try to have a conversation with the officer (when neither is heated by emotion). Be the adult if they aren't. Hope this was done earlier.
-If conversation doesn't work and not in COC, follow up with your COC.
-If in COC, ask for open door policy to see higher commander.
Reserves are slower than active duty. If going IG, be sure the officer isn't right about the NCO, as everything will come out.
So, we have one side of the sorry. It's important to get a good SU. I've seen before of privates butthurt about an NCO making a legitimate correction, taking the complaint to the commander, and a knee jerk reaction to reprimand a good NCO.
Assuming this is true, which could be as I've seen in the past, here are some option:
-Regardless, first try to have a conversation with the officer (when neither is heated by emotion). Be the adult if they aren't. Hope this was done earlier.
-If conversation doesn't work and not in COC, follow up with your COC.
-If in COC, ask for open door policy to see higher commander.
Reserves are slower than active duty. If going IG, be sure the officer isn't right about the NCO, as everything will come out.
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SPC Andrew Kutnink
Just reading your reply to the action is exactly what one person wrote, officers stick together. Regardless what this NCO did, he did not retaliate by yelling or cursing at the officer, the officer said BAD things about the NCOs family and was doing this in public. It does not matter what was done prior, where it was done or who it involved or even if they were/had a relationship of certain degrees. What the officer did was disrespectful and the way she did it was unacceptable. My unit was completely belittled by a Lt Col at NTC because we were a brand new unit, active duty and were of course getting ready for deployment. He sent a few groups out to set stuff up without sending water or food for the soldiers and when he was questioned he said they would be find and to send them. We had atleast 20 soldiers with various ranks upto SFC get sent back due to different heat injuries due to no water. Sat out in the box for 4 extra days with virtually no water cause one officer lost his nvgs and 1 officer losing his 9mm back in the rear. Once we got back he berated us telling us we were absolute shit and worst unit he has ever been attached to yadah yadah. He lost his position as soon as we got back to our base.
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The Chain of Command is always the place to begin. If I had witnessed this in my day that Captain and I would have had an offline discussion behind a closed door - respectful but direct. Sergeants Major and Master Sergeants are normally seasoned and can often rectify it at the lowest level. Of course it can be elevated if the captain fails to understand her shortfall and apologize. Most senior officers like it when they know that an attempt was made before it being brought to their attention.
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She should be thankful the SFC maintained his composure. I've had a similar situation and it didn't go well for the officer. Remember if you open that door of disrespect there may be someone willing to dress you down also. If you cursed me, you most likely got the same in return, and I wasn't concerned with your rank. Remember rank gives no one the privilege of being disrespectful.
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Report it. NO ONE should be treated with anything less than dignity and respect. CGOs are still being groomed for future leadership positions and toxic leadership is UNSAT.
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Report it to the Chain of Command. If they fail to take appropriate action, take it to the IG.
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As an "Old School" NCO, I remember a WWII vets CSM telling me as a young E4, If you ever want to get back at an officer, just wait for the right moment aND do EXACTLY what that young Officer tells you. No more, no less. It will work out...... (smile )
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SGM Robin Johnson
When I joined back in 1980 that is what we were taught! I told my first Platoon Leader that - that if he kept treating the Soldiers like he was they would do exactly what he told them to do. He said 'That's all I want!" and I told him "You think so now..." After the dry run for the ARTEP (for those of us dinosaurs who remember those) went about as you would expect he was having a conniption and I said "But they did EXACTLY what you told them to do, to the letter." Then we had a talk. (The ARTEP went great - we knew our business, but he got the point.)
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First and foremost is the chain of command. Since it is the CPT doing it and going as far as bringing in PERSONAL LIFE into an argument said CPT should face a reprimand board. Since the SFC CAN'T report it to the CPT he must then address it too the MASTER SGT. If that fails it should be reported to the FIRST SGT. If not resolved that way they must continue on up the ladder until it is resolved. Sounds like the CPT has blatant disrespect for this particular SFC.
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