Posted on Dec 18, 2013
Should not being ABN, AASLT, etc qualified prevent you from going to promotion board or NCOES?
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Just found out that there are units who require Soldiers to attend a ABN, AASLT, or similar schools in order to be recommended for a promotion board or to even attend a NCOES school. Should not being qualified in these courses, or any other course not required for your MOS, prevent you from doing so?
*Question Revised from Original*
*Question Revised from Original*
Promotions
Promotion Board
Army
Edited 12 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 29
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The total Army strength is about 496,000 as of this month. The total number of airborne coded slots across the Army as of 2012 dropped to about 49,000. That is less than 10% of the active force. I am not sure of the numbers, but as far as I know, the only "Air Assault" coded units are 3 BCTs in the 101st (please correct me if I am wrong). The requirement that a Soldier has a special skill qualification in order to get promoted is ludicrous.
These are considered special skills because not everyone in the Army has them. The Army standards for promotion set forth a lot of conditions (TIG, TIS, NCOES, etc.) but having a special skill is not one of them. That is why you get promotion points for them. Because they are out of the ordinary. Not everyone in the Army can be or needs to be "special". Why do you need to be airborne or air assault qualified if you work in a warehouse? If you are an air traffic controller? Some people will say "because we need to be able to get those people into the combat zone ASAP, and that may necessitate dropping them from aircraft." Bull. We haven't dropped troops on a mass scale into combat since WWII. There was one jump into Korea and one jump into Vietnam and one small jump into Panama. But wait! What about the guys who jumped into Iraq? I'm not even going to talk about that one. The bottom line is: airborne insertion is an outdated mode of inserting troops into a combat zone, and will most likely never be done again on a large scale. It is still a viable insertion method for small groups of special operations troops, but not for a division sized element. Before you scream in outrage, take a look at my photo to the left there. I am airborne qualified. I went to jump school in 1991 and did my last jump in 2013.
There are thousands of Soldiers who made it all the way to E-9 without being airborne or air assault qualified, including 5 of the last 10 Sergeants Major of the Army. The skill badges are really cool looking on your uniform, but they do not give you special powers or make you a superman. The schools do help develop leadership skills, but I have had my fair share of leaders who were bad AND airborne or air assault qualified (sometimes both). Let's not make these skill badges more important than they actually are. They are qualification badges, nothing more.
These are considered special skills because not everyone in the Army has them. The Army standards for promotion set forth a lot of conditions (TIG, TIS, NCOES, etc.) but having a special skill is not one of them. That is why you get promotion points for them. Because they are out of the ordinary. Not everyone in the Army can be or needs to be "special". Why do you need to be airborne or air assault qualified if you work in a warehouse? If you are an air traffic controller? Some people will say "because we need to be able to get those people into the combat zone ASAP, and that may necessitate dropping them from aircraft." Bull. We haven't dropped troops on a mass scale into combat since WWII. There was one jump into Korea and one jump into Vietnam and one small jump into Panama. But wait! What about the guys who jumped into Iraq? I'm not even going to talk about that one. The bottom line is: airborne insertion is an outdated mode of inserting troops into a combat zone, and will most likely never be done again on a large scale. It is still a viable insertion method for small groups of special operations troops, but not for a division sized element. Before you scream in outrage, take a look at my photo to the left there. I am airborne qualified. I went to jump school in 1991 and did my last jump in 2013.
There are thousands of Soldiers who made it all the way to E-9 without being airborne or air assault qualified, including 5 of the last 10 Sergeants Major of the Army. The skill badges are really cool looking on your uniform, but they do not give you special powers or make you a superman. The schools do help develop leadership skills, but I have had my fair share of leaders who were bad AND airborne or air assault qualified (sometimes both). Let's not make these skill badges more important than they actually are. They are qualification badges, nothing more.
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As it has been said in the other responses, if you volunteer to be stationed in a ABN or AASLT unit. You should attend these school so that way you full fill the requirements of the unit. Now if you can not attend these schools due to profile, training cycle, or not enough available slots this should not stop you from being recommended for promotion. Now being in a AASLT DIV I have seen first hand soldiers and NCO's not allowed to go to the promotion board because they didn't have wings. I believe that is wrong, wings or no wings this should not hinder a good soldier or NCO from progressing in there career.
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I failed to mention that service in parachute, not air assault, units is strictly voluntary. A soldier can always
terminate jump status. I've known one really good officer who did after he was a towed jumper. No one held it against him. So if you're in
an airborne unit and you don't want to go to airborne school, your
branch will reassign you. BTW airborne school is pretty easy.
terminate jump status. I've known one really good officer who did after he was a towed jumper. No one held it against him. So if you're in
an airborne unit and you don't want to go to airborne school, your
branch will reassign you. BTW airborne school is pretty easy.
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1SG(P) (Join to see)
A towed jumper is a parachutist who upon exiting the aircraft is hung up on his equipment or is towed by a faulty static line. It's rare.
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Neither of those schools are identified as a requirement for promotion, nor for NCOES.
Army Directive 2017-28, signed Dec. 7, 2018.
Under the new policy, every Soldier in the “primary zone” for promotion, who is also “fully qualified” and meets Army standards for elevation to the next rank, is required to appear before a local promotion board.
“(This) is mandatory for all Soldiers upon initially reaching primary zone eligibility.
For a Regular Army or Army Reserve Soldier to be deemed “fully qualified,” they must, among other things, have a high school diploma or GED, have a passing score on their Army Physical Fitness Test, meet weight standards, and not be involved in the Army Substance Abuse Program as a result of a command referral.
MILPER Message 16-089, directs OML lists for NCOES attendance based on highest number of promotion points.
See, nothing about ABN, AASLT.
The Army mandated board attendance and specified how an OML was to be managed, because of the number of eligible SPC and SGT on promotion lists, versus those eligible.
Whether a Soldier is ABN or AASLT qualified and assigned to a position requiring that qualification isn't related to promotion or NCOES attendance, and if a unit requires it, that appears to be contrary to Army policy.
If someone is assigned to a position requiring a specific Additional Skill Qualification Identifier (ASI) or Skill Qualification Identifier (SQI) and fail to obtain it, they should be reassigned.
I did notice, according to Table 12-2, DA Pam 611-21, there are no positions with ASI 2B, Air Assault. Now, before all of the folks from 101st heads explode, I didn't write the DA Pam, I just cited it.
Having said all that, I served in the 82nd and understand the emphasis on NCOs meeting unit standards. If you volunteered for Abn, you were on the next thing smoking to Benning for jump school. If you failed, off to Corps upon return.
If you were an NCO, you would get the side eye if you weren't wearing a yellow or red arm band at manifest. If you don't know what the arm band represents, you just self identified as a leg.
Whether it is right, or wrong, isn't for me to say, as I'm retired. There are those who will argue that you can add to, but not take away from a regulation, but that generally lacks factual support.
My personal opinion: If you're an NCO in an AASLT unit, you should be AASLT qualified, and a Rappel Master.
If you're an NCO in an ABN unit, you should be ABN, and a Jumpmaster.
If you're an NCO in a leg unit, you should obtain whatever SQI and ASI apply to that unit.
Army Directive 2017-28, signed Dec. 7, 2018.
Under the new policy, every Soldier in the “primary zone” for promotion, who is also “fully qualified” and meets Army standards for elevation to the next rank, is required to appear before a local promotion board.
“(This) is mandatory for all Soldiers upon initially reaching primary zone eligibility.
For a Regular Army or Army Reserve Soldier to be deemed “fully qualified,” they must, among other things, have a high school diploma or GED, have a passing score on their Army Physical Fitness Test, meet weight standards, and not be involved in the Army Substance Abuse Program as a result of a command referral.
MILPER Message 16-089, directs OML lists for NCOES attendance based on highest number of promotion points.
See, nothing about ABN, AASLT.
The Army mandated board attendance and specified how an OML was to be managed, because of the number of eligible SPC and SGT on promotion lists, versus those eligible.
Whether a Soldier is ABN or AASLT qualified and assigned to a position requiring that qualification isn't related to promotion or NCOES attendance, and if a unit requires it, that appears to be contrary to Army policy.
If someone is assigned to a position requiring a specific Additional Skill Qualification Identifier (ASI) or Skill Qualification Identifier (SQI) and fail to obtain it, they should be reassigned.
I did notice, according to Table 12-2, DA Pam 611-21, there are no positions with ASI 2B, Air Assault. Now, before all of the folks from 101st heads explode, I didn't write the DA Pam, I just cited it.
Having said all that, I served in the 82nd and understand the emphasis on NCOs meeting unit standards. If you volunteered for Abn, you were on the next thing smoking to Benning for jump school. If you failed, off to Corps upon return.
If you were an NCO, you would get the side eye if you weren't wearing a yellow or red arm band at manifest. If you don't know what the arm band represents, you just self identified as a leg.
Whether it is right, or wrong, isn't for me to say, as I'm retired. There are those who will argue that you can add to, but not take away from a regulation, but that generally lacks factual support.
My personal opinion: If you're an NCO in an AASLT unit, you should be AASLT qualified, and a Rappel Master.
If you're an NCO in an ABN unit, you should be ABN, and a Jumpmaster.
If you're an NCO in a leg unit, you should obtain whatever SQI and ASI apply to that unit.
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SGT Javier Silva
But if you were in a leadership position in any of the units, would you prevent a junior Soldier, or NCO from going to a board because they weren't? Regardless of what directions are (because we know that not all leaders follow directions). Would you treat those Soldiers differently just because they weren't?
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1SG (Join to see)
SGT Javier Silva I never stopped a Soldier or NCO from attending NCOES or a promotion (or other) board because they weren't ABN or a Jumpmaster.
Treat them differently? No. I believed in exceeding standards, but the minimum requirements were the standard, which I reapected.
I will say that I always encouraged Soldiers and NCOs to exceed the standard, and make themselves overqualified. Why? You can't complain you were passed over for any nefarious reason if you aren't the most qualified NCO under consideration.
I recall interviewing with a CSM for a position. I had completed my leadership time, and wanted a staff position that would permit me to go to Battle Staff. What he "encouraged" his NCOs to at least attempt, went like this:
Jumpmaster-- I am CSM.
SAMC -- I am CSM.
Some college -- BA CSM.
Correspondence Courses -- over 100 hours annually CSM, at over 800 hours total.
None of these were required for that position, but he knew NCOs wanted the slot because of the Battle Staff opportunity, and he wanted NCOs who wanted to excel, and had more to offer the unit. He didn't want a wasted slot.
Treat them differently? No. I believed in exceeding standards, but the minimum requirements were the standard, which I reapected.
I will say that I always encouraged Soldiers and NCOs to exceed the standard, and make themselves overqualified. Why? You can't complain you were passed over for any nefarious reason if you aren't the most qualified NCO under consideration.
I recall interviewing with a CSM for a position. I had completed my leadership time, and wanted a staff position that would permit me to go to Battle Staff. What he "encouraged" his NCOs to at least attempt, went like this:
Jumpmaster-- I am CSM.
SAMC -- I am CSM.
Some college -- BA CSM.
Correspondence Courses -- over 100 hours annually CSM, at over 800 hours total.
None of these were required for that position, but he knew NCOs wanted the slot because of the Battle Staff opportunity, and he wanted NCOs who wanted to excel, and had more to offer the unit. He didn't want a wasted slot.
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Based on the plain reading of your question, the idea of "requiring" someone to have a non-required school or skillset (per B&W Army Regulation) as a condition for "consideration for promotion" inserts Subjectivity (one man's opinion) into what is supposed to an Objective (defined in B&W) process.
Although it is great to say "We want all of our NCOs to be X qualified" that is not necessarily a Unit Level decision, and Leadership who are imposing their will on the process are acting in an Unjust manner.
This is no different than saying "I'm not sending any XX MOS to the promotion board" (you go through a specific school to get your MOS, just as you go through a specific school to get a qualification). If a 1SG or CSM said "We don't do boards for non-combat arms" he would quickly find himself removed from the position for unethical behavior.
There is a difference if said skill is required for the current billet (as in wings for an Airborne unit), but that would be exception not rule.
Although it is great to say "We want all of our NCOs to be X qualified" that is not necessarily a Unit Level decision, and Leadership who are imposing their will on the process are acting in an Unjust manner.
This is no different than saying "I'm not sending any XX MOS to the promotion board" (you go through a specific school to get your MOS, just as you go through a specific school to get a qualification). If a 1SG or CSM said "We don't do boards for non-combat arms" he would quickly find himself removed from the position for unethical behavior.
There is a difference if said skill is required for the current billet (as in wings for an Airborne unit), but that would be exception not rule.
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Well....Yes, if you are in an AIRBORNE unit you should be AIRBORNE. If you are in an Air Assault unit, you should go to earn your Bullwinkle Badge. If you are in a unit that repairs nose cones, then Inflight Nosecone repair school may be for you....
All kidding aside, if those schools are required for your unit, OR if the slots are coded on the MTOE as AIRBORNE/AIR ASSAULT slots, then by all means you should go. There are some units that have both Paratroopers and Legs in the same platoons (My Wife was in one of those). The unit WANTED 100% Airborne Qualification, so they were ENCOURAGED to go to jump school. I never understood wearing a beret and jump boots without wings on your things, but then they gave everyone a beret....That is kinda like every kid at Special Olympics gets a trophy so they can feel good about themselves.....ahh....Now that my friends is the Army...The US Army, those wonderful people that gave you the Warrior Pass in Korea, the US Army , new and improved, the sweetest smelling Army in the World!
All kidding aside, if those schools are required for your unit, OR if the slots are coded on the MTOE as AIRBORNE/AIR ASSAULT slots, then by all means you should go. There are some units that have both Paratroopers and Legs in the same platoons (My Wife was in one of those). The unit WANTED 100% Airborne Qualification, so they were ENCOURAGED to go to jump school. I never understood wearing a beret and jump boots without wings on your things, but then they gave everyone a beret....That is kinda like every kid at Special Olympics gets a trophy so they can feel good about themselves.....ahh....Now that my friends is the Army...The US Army, those wonderful people that gave you the Warrior Pass in Korea, the US Army , new and improved, the sweetest smelling Army in the World!
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I don't believe this is fair to the member. It is quite possible to go from one light unit to a mech unit and back to a light unit and never have the chance to get to a school. And what of non-combat arms? They stand significantly lower chances of DA approving a school request than combat arms troops.
Bad idea. Way bad.
Bad idea. Way bad.
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<p>I think this is a good thread for those we are trying to get to join can see the substance of some things we discuss between us as current and former military, soft spoken as well as informational and mentoring types of postings.</p><p><br></p><p>We also have fun at times while remaining professional.</p>
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