Posted on May 28, 2016
Should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events?
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I am an atheist, but I also believe strongly in the right to practice your own religion freely. When it comes to ceremonies, I believe that prayer could be seen as a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment. I believe this because there are many different beliefs recognized by the government (atheism/agnosticism, satanism, Buddhism/Hinduism, etc...) that fall outside of the Christian spectrum, and having a Chaplin lead prayer before mandatory events forces non-believers and followers of different faiths to participate in a practice outside of their own. Is it just me, or should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events such as promotion/graduation ceremonies and commander calls to ensure religious freedom is enforced?
Atheism
Ceremony
Religion
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 102
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There is no solution that will ever satisfy 100% of people. This has been a tradition for more years than it has been an issue. What about the rights of the people that believe? I say let the ones that believe keep praying and the ones who don't keep on not believing. But in all honesty I heard a lot of people call on GOD but I have yet heard one call for Satan. Not saying they didn't, just saying I never heard them.
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1SG (Join to see)
Someone who doesn't believe in any god(s) will most likely not believe in satan either.
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People, military and civilian alike, always get this wrong. The First Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" meaning it is a freedom of religion, not a freedom from religion. While you cannot be forced to participate in the Benediction (prayer), you also cannot ban it from official ceremonies. To ban prayer at official functions is to trample on the First Amendment rights of those who prefer to have it. As a service member who swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, that means that you swore an oath to defend the First Amendment rights of others. To suggest doing away with prayer at official functions, you are violating the oath that you took!
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SSG Gary Lewis
Hello everyone,
My opinion would be to keep prayer in official gatherings. Because the 56 people who signed the Declaration of Independence all had religious backgrounds or affiliation:
Religious Affiliation # of signers
Episcopalian/Anglican 32
Congregationalist 13
Presbyterian 12
Quaker 2
Unitarian or Universalist 2
Catholic 1
TOTAL 56 100%
They allowed religious freedom. In America, because of the needs or whims of the few, God has been removed from the schools and other “public” properties, crosses and other statues such as the 10 commandments, Manger depictions, the word “Christmas” at Christmas, God in Easter and thanksgiving (don’t stop selling the gifts and cards though) or using cash because of the “In God we trust” (which the few want to abolish too). I perceive the downward moral spiral of society, total lack of respect, and the “if it feels good do it mentality” as having been caused by kicking God out when he was certainly there when we broke from British rule.
My opinion would be to keep prayer in official gatherings. Because the 56 people who signed the Declaration of Independence all had religious backgrounds or affiliation:
Religious Affiliation # of signers
Episcopalian/Anglican 32
Congregationalist 13
Presbyterian 12
Quaker 2
Unitarian or Universalist 2
Catholic 1
TOTAL 56 100%
They allowed religious freedom. In America, because of the needs or whims of the few, God has been removed from the schools and other “public” properties, crosses and other statues such as the 10 commandments, Manger depictions, the word “Christmas” at Christmas, God in Easter and thanksgiving (don’t stop selling the gifts and cards though) or using cash because of the “In God we trust” (which the few want to abolish too). I perceive the downward moral spiral of society, total lack of respect, and the “if it feels good do it mentality” as having been caused by kicking God out when he was certainly there when we broke from British rule.
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
and once again, why can all religions not be permitted, also, you list of signers of the Declaration of Independence does not mean anything. The vast majority of those mean believed that religion had no place in the government.
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CW3 Stephen Mills
You keep saying all religions aren't permitted but I have yet to see this substantiated at all. The close anybody has come is by giving numbers of Christian chaplains vs other religions. That's not the fault of the Christians, that's the fault of the other religions not wanting to be chaplains. Restricting Christian chaplains for that reason is the equivalent of starving everybody because some people aren't able to eat. It lacks the common sense test.
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1SG (Join to see)
OFFICIAL prayer was removed from school. Students are still allowed their faith and can start faith based clubs in school as well. Read below from au.org if interested
Few issues in American public life engender more controversy than religion and public education. Unfortunately, this topic is all too often shrouded in confusion and misinformation. When discussing this matter, it's important to keep in mind some basic facts.
Ninety percent of America's youngsters attend public schools. These students come from homes that espouse a variety of religious and philosophical beliefs. Given the incredible diversity of American society, it's important that our public schools respect the beliefs of everyone and protect parental rights. The schools can best do this by not sponsoring religious worship. This principle ensures that America's public schools are welcoming to all children and leaves decisions about religion where they belong with the family.
The U.S. Supreme Court has been vigilant in forbidding public schools and other agencies of the government to interfere with Americans' constitutional right to follow their own consciences when it comes to religion. In 1962, the justices ruled that official prayer had no place in public education.
This decision is widely misunderstood today. The court did not rule that students are forbidden to pray on their own; the justices merely said that government officials had no business composing a prayer for students to recite. The Engel v. Vitale case came about because parents in New York challenged a prayer written by a New York education board. These Christian, Jewish and Unitarian parents did not want their children subjected to state-sponsored devotions. The high court agreed that the scheme amounted to government promotion of religion.
Few issues in American public life engender more controversy than religion and public education. Unfortunately, this topic is all too often shrouded in confusion and misinformation. When discussing this matter, it's important to keep in mind some basic facts.
Ninety percent of America's youngsters attend public schools. These students come from homes that espouse a variety of religious and philosophical beliefs. Given the incredible diversity of American society, it's important that our public schools respect the beliefs of everyone and protect parental rights. The schools can best do this by not sponsoring religious worship. This principle ensures that America's public schools are welcoming to all children and leaves decisions about religion where they belong with the family.
The U.S. Supreme Court has been vigilant in forbidding public schools and other agencies of the government to interfere with Americans' constitutional right to follow their own consciences when it comes to religion. In 1962, the justices ruled that official prayer had no place in public education.
This decision is widely misunderstood today. The court did not rule that students are forbidden to pray on their own; the justices merely said that government officials had no business composing a prayer for students to recite. The Engel v. Vitale case came about because parents in New York challenged a prayer written by a New York education board. These Christian, Jewish and Unitarian parents did not want their children subjected to state-sponsored devotions. The high court agreed that the scheme amounted to government promotion of religion.
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You don't have to pray to Jesus specifically. I've participated in many ceremonies and they usually don't mention a specific God. If you are an atheist then pray for yourself. Not a big deal to me...
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Should their religious practice be restricted to accommodate your choice of no religion?
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SGT Chris Hill
Capt Gregory Prickett - if its not specifically a religious event, of course not. If it's a part of military tradition, then yes. You cannot expect the military as a whole to accommodate each individual's preference, all the military is required to do is allow you the time to practice your religious beliefs and not discriminate against your belief of choice. I have had atheist friends who simply just bowed their head but did not close their eyes, and they make it simple but not making a big deal out of it. If it's a prayer breakfast, no they cannot and will not make you participate, but if it's a memorial ceremony and prayer is part of it, then yes absolutely, suck it up.
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
Yes, if you are going to say that one religion is represented, why does that one religion get preference? So I have to just suck it up huh? Sounds kinda like you are forcing me to participate, in your religion.
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SGT Chris Hill
MSgt Jonathan Stump - So you want the big military to cater to your individual specific belief, how exactly would you suggest they accomadate you? You obviously have been in the military long enough to know that a lot of what's performed as a whole is based on tradition. Nobody is forcing you to do anything except follow traditions, if prayer is included, like other atheists I've known, follow along through the motions and don't take it so offensive if you're bowing your head. I read a story about how some atheist explained that when others bow their heads for prayer, he'd personally use that time to take a moment of silence for the fallen. He didn't make it a big deal because he had thick skin and had the maturity to know its all part of tradition.
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What type on Non Religious Ceremonies are we talking about that are mandatory? Picnic's? things of that nature? You dont have to pray if you are not a religious person. If you are uncomfortable with a prayer being said, You can always walk to the door and wiat outside until it is done, or you can stand and give thanks to whichever spirit of diety that you chose... I am not necessarily a religious person, I have my beliefs, but I will stand by silently, and listen or think of what I need.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
Commander's Call and change of command, to name a couple. Let's see you just walk out on one with no repercussions.
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Ban it. Feel free to pray on your own. I never liked God being brought into official functions in the military. Most of my friends felt the same. Not all "traditions" are right just because they're traditions.
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My personal opinion on this is as follows:
If you choose to pray during a mandated event, be it individually, or in a group; more power to you. However, do not make (or try to make) everyone else participate. As a Hellenic, I do not follow the prayer standards of the more conventional religions, and so I cannot participate in their prayers. All I can do (out of respect) is bow my head and remain silent. But no words nor prayers go up to the gods at this time. But I do not mind others praying during these events.
If you choose to pray during a mandated event, be it individually, or in a group; more power to you. However, do not make (or try to make) everyone else participate. As a Hellenic, I do not follow the prayer standards of the more conventional religions, and so I cannot participate in their prayers. All I can do (out of respect) is bow my head and remain silent. But no words nor prayers go up to the gods at this time. But I do not mind others praying during these events.
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
Exactly what we are saying SPC. This is why the prayer should not be part of the ceremony.
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SPC (Join to see)
MSgt Jonathan Stump - I don't have a problem with prayer being a part of it at all. People have the right and the freedom to either participate or decline at their own will. But the fact is, prayer and religion have been one of the foundations of our military since it's inception. This is a time-honored custom that is still around to cater to the majority. It is not offensive or entrapping, and if it is taken as such, then someone should probably reconsider the organization they have CHOSEN to be a part of. No one is persecuting Pagans, or Muslims or anyone else by praying at an award ceremony or a graduation. If anything, it helps our image to the public by showing that on some level, we are still an organization based upon a moral and ethical code. There is nothing wrong with prayer being a part of any ceremony or going-on within the military. If the particular prayer does not cater to your faith, then bow out and pray on your own. Personally, I see this as yet another PC "I got a feelings boo-boo" argument that is ultimately irrelevant.
You cannot say you agree with me or that I am saying the same thing you are, if what I say directly opposes your argument. I plainly said, "If you choose to pray during a mandated event, be it individually, or in a group; more power to you." This includes Chaplain-led prayers at a ceremony. It doesn't hurt anyone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
And to answer your response to SGT Chris Hill's comment, no. No one is forcing you to abide by their religion, nor to participate. When the prayer is said, no one can force you to pray. Do as I do and silently bow your head and wait for them to finish, simply out of respect for those who are observing their religious practice.
Plain and simple, you are in the military, and sometimes we have to --oh, shocker -- suck it up. And this is one of those times.
You cannot say you agree with me or that I am saying the same thing you are, if what I say directly opposes your argument. I plainly said, "If you choose to pray during a mandated event, be it individually, or in a group; more power to you." This includes Chaplain-led prayers at a ceremony. It doesn't hurt anyone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
And to answer your response to SGT Chris Hill's comment, no. No one is forcing you to abide by their religion, nor to participate. When the prayer is said, no one can force you to pray. Do as I do and silently bow your head and wait for them to finish, simply out of respect for those who are observing their religious practice.
Plain and simple, you are in the military, and sometimes we have to --oh, shocker -- suck it up. And this is one of those times.
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
SPC (Join to see) - no, no I do not have to just suck it up and stand by. So you should just suck it up and stand by if I want to haze the airmen as they get promoted? Come on.
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SMSgt Cary Baker
MSgt, hazing is illegal and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. completely two different subject matters. MSgt, if you participate in a mandatory function, and I know you have or you wouldn't be a MSgt, you have sucked it up!!! Don't say you wouldn't. For you not to suck it up, means either you refuse to attend a mandatory function which means some kind of reprisal may come your way, or you chose to disrupt it and disrespect the function, which means some kind of reprisal will come your way. I don't believe for a second that you refuse to suck it up!!! Well said SPC!!!
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Normally, when prayer is said (by a Chaplain or other clergy) you have an option to listen or not. When I would listen to Islamic Prayers I did not get upset. In the end I would make the sign of the cross, like I always close my own prayers. You have a choice of listening or not listening. Talk with a Chaplain about this and get their take. I would suggest talking to a Catholic Priest or Orthodox Priest (but that is what I am comfortable with).
There is no exclusionary clause in the 1st Amendment. Read the words of the Amendment and you should draw the same conclusion. Stop listening to the ignorant around you (from both sides). No one is allowed to force you to partake in prayer (bow you head, clasp your hands, and so on). However, don't listen to anyone that says the Amendment states there is a definite separation between Church and State. Our Government cannot form its own religion (like England has) and turn it into the National Religion.
What does Religious Freedom mean to you? Freedom from Religion? The SCOTUS have made rulings on the grounds that Atheism is a theological view, or it is a religious view. So, Freedom From Religion should also be Freedom from Atheists forcing their view points onto others and into organizations. However, that is not the case. You have the right to believe what you want and so do I. You have the right to not have to participate in religious events, but I also have the right to participate. There is the conundrum. Who is right and who is wrong? Who's right trumps the other?
I hope you can find the answers to these issues and figure out where the true happy medium are. However, I hope you focus more on being a great leader and learning as much as you can about creating the best environment for your subordinates to mature and grow. Don't fool yourself. You are a supervisor. There are those that are following you now. Cultivate that and grow it.
There is no exclusionary clause in the 1st Amendment. Read the words of the Amendment and you should draw the same conclusion. Stop listening to the ignorant around you (from both sides). No one is allowed to force you to partake in prayer (bow you head, clasp your hands, and so on). However, don't listen to anyone that says the Amendment states there is a definite separation between Church and State. Our Government cannot form its own religion (like England has) and turn it into the National Religion.
What does Religious Freedom mean to you? Freedom from Religion? The SCOTUS have made rulings on the grounds that Atheism is a theological view, or it is a religious view. So, Freedom From Religion should also be Freedom from Atheists forcing their view points onto others and into organizations. However, that is not the case. You have the right to believe what you want and so do I. You have the right to not have to participate in religious events, but I also have the right to participate. There is the conundrum. Who is right and who is wrong? Who's right trumps the other?
I hope you can find the answers to these issues and figure out where the true happy medium are. However, I hope you focus more on being a great leader and learning as much as you can about creating the best environment for your subordinates to mature and grow. Don't fool yourself. You are a supervisor. There are those that are following you now. Cultivate that and grow it.
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Even better, try talking to the JAG or a lawyer, who can explain exactly what the court decisions on the First Amendment mean. And the establishment clause prohibits government support of religion, especially when it is forced on those who do not have a choice on attendance.
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MSgt (Join to see)
What Constitution Clause prevents me from having to deal with a defective leader or someone speaking to a Formation, if I do not believe in what they are saying, have issues with what they are saying, and understand their words to be offensive (in nature), demeaning, derogatory, or otherwise not within good standing of morale and wellbeing of a unit? If that person is my supervisor, Manager, OIC, XO, or Skipper, there is nothing that can be done at the moment.
I had great JAG Lawyers and I am friends with many practicing lawyers that will tell me (and have told me) there is no Freedom From having to be in the vicinity of someone praying during an official function. Is it not a long standing tradition that our functions be started in certain manners and with certain guidelines? The Military (especially the Air Force) likes to cram "Tradition" down our throats. Standing in formation for hours, for no real reason... Tradition. The AF Enlisted wearing the biggest and most flamboyant rank on our sleeves... Tradition.
If we fail to remember our past we will fail our future.
I had great JAG Lawyers and I am friends with many practicing lawyers that will tell me (and have told me) there is no Freedom From having to be in the vicinity of someone praying during an official function. Is it not a long standing tradition that our functions be started in certain manners and with certain guidelines? The Military (especially the Air Force) likes to cram "Tradition" down our throats. Standing in formation for hours, for no real reason... Tradition. The AF Enlisted wearing the biggest and most flamboyant rank on our sleeves... Tradition.
If we fail to remember our past we will fail our future.
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MSgt (Join to see)
Furthermore, as a Catholic, I prefer Catholic and Orthodox Prayers; however, I will not turn down any prayers said for me. Anytime someone beseeches help for me I am all for it. I don't care if it is to God's that I do not believe in. I don't care if it from Wiccans, Witch Doctors, or a Medicine Man from a North American Tribe.
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This is a complicated issue looking for an easy answer where there is none...
If you were my Airman, I would say this: while you should never be required to participate in a religious ceremony against your will, you are not (and can never be) protected from exposure to religious activity in the US Military. There is a huge difference between being forced to participate and respectfully standing by and allowing others to participate. As a Christian, if the Command ceremony were lead by an Imam I would have no issues with it - I would not participate, but would not feel uncomfortable about others doing so.
As an A1C you are very young in your career, and will find that many deployment destinations will expose you to not only different forms of religion, but many local laws that make practicing such religion compulsory.
When participation becomes compulsory, at that point you should be concerned. Until then, just sit/stand quietly and let others around you practice their religion in the blanket of the security that we provide for them. We do what we do, and sacrifice what we sacrifice, to provide our country the right to EXERCISE freedoms, not suppress them.
If you were my Airman, I would say this: while you should never be required to participate in a religious ceremony against your will, you are not (and can never be) protected from exposure to religious activity in the US Military. There is a huge difference between being forced to participate and respectfully standing by and allowing others to participate. As a Christian, if the Command ceremony were lead by an Imam I would have no issues with it - I would not participate, but would not feel uncomfortable about others doing so.
As an A1C you are very young in your career, and will find that many deployment destinations will expose you to not only different forms of religion, but many local laws that make practicing such religion compulsory.
When participation becomes compulsory, at that point you should be concerned. Until then, just sit/stand quietly and let others around you practice their religion in the blanket of the security that we provide for them. We do what we do, and sacrifice what we sacrifice, to provide our country the right to EXERCISE freedoms, not suppress them.
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SSgt Jeremy Phillips
MSgt Jonathan Stump - Hopefully I'm not coming across as rabid - just playing Devil's Advicate for a moment. Case in point, if the litmus test is that we have to make everyone happy or no one at all, then we are on a slippery slope. It's not only about being free from an uncomfortable situation, but also whether that gives one the right to deny others from practicing their religion.
For most ceremonies I think your suggestion is a good one. However, if you yourself wanted to have a Chaplain say something at your retirement ceremony, you should also be free to do so.
My fear is that we are trying too hard to avoid being "uncomfortable" - too hard to say "it's about me and how I feel" without consideration to others. It's a two way street - if you are the Jew and in the room as a member of the audience, what's so difficult about just being respectful of a Chaplain's prayer? That way, when you are the Jew on stage and you want a Rabbi's blessing, people can respect your right to practice your faith. The conversation shouldn't be about excluding any religious input at all, but rather how you can respect and tolerate others with differing views and have yours respected in turn.
For most ceremonies I think your suggestion is a good one. However, if you yourself wanted to have a Chaplain say something at your retirement ceremony, you should also be free to do so.
My fear is that we are trying too hard to avoid being "uncomfortable" - too hard to say "it's about me and how I feel" without consideration to others. It's a two way street - if you are the Jew and in the room as a member of the audience, what's so difficult about just being respectful of a Chaplain's prayer? That way, when you are the Jew on stage and you want a Rabbi's blessing, people can respect your right to practice your faith. The conversation shouldn't be about excluding any religious input at all, but rather how you can respect and tolerate others with differing views and have yours respected in turn.
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
SSgt Jeremy Phillips - What is so difficult in just including that Jew into the ceremony and inviting the rabbi to give a invocation also? No one is asking anyone to not allow the prayer. Why can it not be held before as to respect EVERYONE'S beliefs?
So lets get this straight. There are X amount of ceremonies a year, would you be ok with say 3 of those being done by a rabbi and 3 being done by a muslim and lets say that we bring in a wiccan priest for the other 3 are ok with you?
I mean if we are going to respect everyone. To say that everyone in the audience is being respected when they cannot have or hear their own religious or non-religious speaker have a turn.....is that really respect?
So lets get this straight. There are X amount of ceremonies a year, would you be ok with say 3 of those being done by a rabbi and 3 being done by a muslim and lets say that we bring in a wiccan priest for the other 3 are ok with you?
I mean if we are going to respect everyone. To say that everyone in the audience is being respected when they cannot have or hear their own religious or non-religious speaker have a turn.....is that really respect?
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
What you’re saying is starting to sound like a joke: A priest, a Rabbi and an Imam walk into a bar…I believe your political correctness is overcoming sound practices and looking for conflicts where none actually exist.
What you’re saying is starting to sound like a joke: A priest, a Rabbi and an Imam walk into a bar…I believe your political correctness is overcoming sound practices and looking for conflicts where none actually exist.
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Sgt Jim Weeder
Well you just insulted the Buddhist and atheist! (KIDDING). Doing a quick look I found 30 different religions. And I know that list did not cover all of them (some that I know were missing). Pulling out my cane and saying "back in the old days" during Basic it was a 45 min. escape from the DI to go to service. And when we had invokes-ions it just added a little time before we had to get back to duties. (now onto the soap box) We have Political Corrected ourselves into a corner. Pretty soon it will be that we can only wound the enemy, because it hurts his comrades and family's feelings that we killed them. Unfortunately in this day in age no matter what you do you are going to hurt someones feelings.
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A1C (Join to see), the First Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof …"
Neither the command nor the Chaplain constitute Congress, and they are not making a law establishing a religion when they have an invocation or a prayer in a ceremony and this does not violate the Constitution as written. Prohibiting the free exercise of religion does violate the clear letter of the law however.
I would say suck it up buttercup, a few words in a ceremony won't hurt you. Practicing tolerance of others' views or beliefs might even do you some good and broaden your mind.
And at the very least tolerance of others’ views might be handy when the world looks at your beliefs; how would you like it if your ability to express your atheism were to be suppressed in the public square?
What goes around comes around.
http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment1.html
Neither the command nor the Chaplain constitute Congress, and they are not making a law establishing a religion when they have an invocation or a prayer in a ceremony and this does not violate the Constitution as written. Prohibiting the free exercise of religion does violate the clear letter of the law however.
I would say suck it up buttercup, a few words in a ceremony won't hurt you. Practicing tolerance of others' views or beliefs might even do you some good and broaden your mind.
And at the very least tolerance of others’ views might be handy when the world looks at your beliefs; how would you like it if your ability to express your atheism were to be suppressed in the public square?
What goes around comes around.
http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment1.html
First Amendment - U.S. Constitution - FindLaw
First Amendment - Religion and ExpressionAmendment Text | Annotations Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
Capt Seid Waddell - are not the atheists' bowing to your beliefs now? So, it is ok to make the atheists', or the jews, or the wiccans also bow to the Christian's will? That is in effect what you are saying.
This is not a democracy, this is a republic. In a republic, the rights are not at the whim of the majority. This is what it seems what is trying to be instituted here. We are the majority, we need a religious part of this ceremony and since we are the majority, well, all of you just go along and it will be ok.
This is not a democracy, this is a republic. In a republic, the rights are not at the whim of the majority. This is what it seems what is trying to be instituted here. We are the majority, we need a religious part of this ceremony and since we are the majority, well, all of you just go along and it will be ok.
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Capt Seid Waddell
MSgt Jonathan Stump, tolerance for others' expressions of their beliefs is the best policy. Getting all butt hurt because someone else expresses a different belief is a weakness, IMHO. It's just words.
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
Capt Seid Waddell - So what is it when those people do not show tolerance for others beliefs in return? One set of peoples belief is ok, the others, well, just stand aside and be quiet.
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Sgt Jim Weeder
It is just like swearing, how many are offended by it but don't say anything? They just move on, they are not told that you have to swear like a sailor to get along.
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