Should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events?

PO1 David M Burns

I've been shot at.

Still don't believe in your imaginary guy in the sky.

Any other questions?

MSgt Burns, shame on you. No atheist I know, including me, would ever resort to violence when religious beliefs are involved. You know who you remind me of? ISIS. You are no better than ISIS with that comment.

Hang around sonny,unless you are a remf you make run into a real realigiouscl clown known as Isis,

Steven obviously you are a REMf Americans don't use ak 47!, the bad guys use it

SSG (Join to see) - The First Church of Cannabis was approved after Indiana’s religious freedom law was passed; imagine the ARMY Chaplin from this church "“If someone is smoking in our church, God bless them,” Levin said. “This is a church to show a proper way of life, a loving way to live life. We are called ‘cannataerians.'”

CPT Pedro Meza - A modern day Cult of Liber Pater?

SSG (Join to see) - In ancient Roman religion and mythology, Liber /ˈlaɪbər/ ("the free one"; Latin: Līber [ˈliːbɛr]), also known as Liber Pater ("the free Father") was a god of viticulture and wine, fertility and freedom. I drink wine, and I am a father too.

CPT Pedro Meza - We should all honor the Free Father. :)

That's not correct, there have been plenty of atheists in foxholes.

Not knowing the estimated numbers, how many prayed? Every day we had a Full Bull Chaplain, with a CIB, make his rounds, and he prayed for all of us...married, single, gay, straight and atheists. My dog tags, that one is still with me and one I left in Vietnam, for religion has "no preference". I don't demand that the Ten Commandments be removed from court houses to please a few, anymore than I demand that the Rebel Flag be removed. I, personally have gone to Christian services, Jewish services...and even went to a Mosque. For all I care you can pray to a Donkey. It is not up to me to tell you different, I just didn't see any non-believers sticking their heads up any higher than I would.

COL Sam Russell - Sir, I'm sorry that you feel that it is appropriate to violate your oath to uphold the Constitution and to protect the religious rights of non-believers.

Hopefully you will not be in a position to mandate such violations in the future.

Capt Gregory Prickett - I know what I swore to defend, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

So, let me get this right, or allow me to "clarify" your last statement. You believe that any commander who sanctions, endorses, supports, or tolerates his or her chaplain saying an invocation and/or benediction, in accordance with their faith, at a change of command ceremony, such commanders are unfit to command? That would mean... EVERY commander in the history of our military is/was unfit to command. What a preposterous notion.
Your expression of ill will toward me at the end of your statement speaks more of you than of me.
Again, may God bless you, and may his peace be with you.

COL Sam Russell - Sir, to clarify for you, I believe that it is inappropriate to force people to participate in a religious exercise. I further believe that the law is very clear on this, that the government may not coerce individuals to participate in prayer. That's based on my personal research of the law, and not only the relevant court decisions (several of which I mentioned above), but on related scholarship on the issue. That includes an article by two professors of law at the U.S.A.F. Academy (see Religion in the Military: Navigating the Channel Between the Religion Clauses, 59 A.F. L. Rev. 1 (2007)); an evaluation of coercion in an article on chaplains (see Entangled Choices: Selecting Chaplains for the United States Armed Forces, 56 Ala. L. Rev. 247 (2004)); and an in-depth review of religion in the military (see The God Exclusion: The Constitutional Implications of Proselytization and Religious Discrimination in the U.S. Military, 76 Brooklyn L. Rev. 807 (2011)). I'm not pulling this out of thin air, nor is it based on my opinion, but on the law.

Second, your statement on all other commanders having violated the Establishment Clause by having a Chaplain-led prayer at at change of command ceremony is just incorrect. I have attended a number of those ceremonies where there was no such invocation; indeed, my own change of command ceremonies (both incoming and outgoing) did not have a prayer or invocation. It's not required by TC 3-21.5 (the old FM 22-5)--indeed, it is not mentioned except for military funerals. It's labeled as optional in AFPAM 34-1202 (Guide to Protocol). It is an optional part of the ceremony and I've been to both Army and Air Force ceremonies without an invocation or prayer.

Third, I have expressed no ill-will towards you, please do not read more into my comments than I have stated. I hope that you will not coerce people into participating in religious activity, that's all. That says nothing about anything else, neither potential future commands or promotions are commented on. To be clear, I have no problem with you being promoted to flag rank, nor to future commands, but I do hope that you don't order people to events and then force religion on them. I hope that you are not in a position to do so, which can mean that you have a superior that would prevent it. My comment had nothing to do with ill-will towards you, but more to do with protecting the rights of service members.

Finally, since you feel the need to bring your faith into our conversation...let me offer a prayer for you.

In his name we pray our glorious Flying Spaghetti Monster show Col. Russell the error of his ways. Touch him with your noodly appendage and show him that he must accept you. In your name we pray. R'Amen.

I have never heard a Chaplin say "let us pray, that's an order". If that was said then it would be forcing you to pray. Since it is not, it isn't. I do not know when the chaplin tool box was written but most likely before we were pissing everyone off with everything. My ex wife had no religion and she was in the Air Force also and I never heard her say "That chaplain at the commanders call today pissed me off because he made me pray". To this day I do not get upset when a invocation is said because I know for some or most in the group it brings comfort to them. At 63 years old I have bigger fish to fry than get pissed off at an invocation. They are not forcing me to join their religion so why make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I like that you were respectful in your rebuttal. Very rare, so I will do the same. I would never take someone's right to pray in private, even if the constitution disagreed with me. Even prayer in appropriate events (individual ceremonies such as graduations and promotions where the promoter requests it, chaple lead events, and funerals) I agree with and am 100% ok with. The issue I have is when a mandatory event is lead with a Christian prayer when all in attendance are not Christian. I feel the same for schools. I believe it should be allowed for all students to have their religious clubs, allow them to pray on their own at lunch or in their own groups, and allow them to carry their religious text around. The issue I have with schools is when the bible or other religious text is taught as fact in history and science classes, and when it is faculty lead prayer in an open setting. Refrence is fine (this religion believes this, that religion believes that etc...). I would never take away someone's religion, but I don't feel it's appropriate to force others to tolerate your religious practices when the same religion is not tolerating the practices of others.

Thank you for being respectful and mature. I believe more people should have adult conversations and be gentlemen.
It has been shown that up to 60% of Church goers may not believe but attend for the social aspect. So if by what you are saying then people in religious institutions should not teach, pray or practice their faith in their institutions unless everyone is a believer?
Tolerance is expected by people of religious background in all instances by society. We seem to be held to an extremely high standard and I don’t blame them. I only wish we all were perfect but sadly we are not made that way. Christian’s strive to be like Christ and we are told to Love God above all else then love your neighbor as yourself. We are expected to tolerate people swearing, some don’t drink or smoke and that is intolerable for them. Porn in society is extremely intolerable to many religious people but we are forced to endure it in America. Christians are forced to adapt to the work culture. I am pressured or flat out told I had to work Sundays and Christmas regardless of my beliefs while non-Christians celebrated. So to tell me that learning about the history of religious groups or seeing people pray is intolerable or offensive seems like a pretty small offense.
Yet, when a person is a believer states their belief they are attacked. A non-believer may not like that God and Religion has been the driving force of history for almost all of history for most of the World in some way or another. When you don’t teach all of history then you are doomed to ignorance. People can’t make good decisions with partial information. I like to look at all the facts over a period of time and continue to reevaluate the information as it develops.
My faith over time has only grown from my experiences. As a critical care air transport (CCAT) nurse and ICU charge nurse I have seen traumas in the USAF that you would not ever want to see and few have seen in the civilian world.
I am glad you shared your point of view on the subject because it allows for a great back and forth discussion. Thank you for your respectful point of view. Hopefully we can continue this.

As of right now religion is not taught in public schools. Some churches have Sunday school where religion is taught. The parents of the children know what is being taught. The Catholics have schools that teach religion and once again the parents know this. Yes in the before said schools science is lacking an example; I was talking with one of my sons on evolution my ex wife came into the room when I was talking about Darwin theory, she had a quizzical look on her face. I then said after quick thought "Oh that's right you went to Catholic school". No one at these mandatory meetings if forcing you to do anything. An example of forcing would be the changing they did to the pledge of allegiance, "under God" was added in the 50's? I believe by Eisenhower if I recall right.

I understand Darwin theory and believe it should be taught in school, just as creation should be taught also, both should be examined. If we can't be open to looking at these theories in a school setting then there is little hope for our society.

The only way I can think to counter this would to say that the military is a government agency and cannot endorse any set religion. The chaplains I have seen use terms like, "God" "all mighty" and "the one and only" so I may be biased here.

Again, the key word in the 1st Amendment is "Congress." Since our constitution provides Congress as the only branch of the national government allowed to write legislation, they are the only ones that could come up with such a rule. However, Congress is restricted by the 1st Amendment from making such a law. Furthermore, only Congress is allowed to regulate the armed forces, not the President as so many think. Therefore, only Congress can provide a regulation limiting religious practice in the armed forces. But oops! Congress cannot make a law (regulation) because the 1st Amendment protects religious liberty. Be happy this is the case. What you propose leads down a slippery slope that our founders were wise enough to help us avoid. Be glad in the knowledge that we still have freedom of conscience. After all, that's what you swore/affirmed to uphold and defend.

I'll further add, it's only words. Words don't hurt. When someone is praying, they're not taking anything away from you. You're not required to bow your head, say Amen, or do anything. Relax and be glad it's not another suicide prevention, don't drink and drive, or please don't rape anyone briefings.