Posted on Sep 13, 2016
CW5 Desk Officer
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Is Snowden a patriot or a traitor? Should President Obama pardon him, as he's asking in this CNN story?

I'll cast the first no vote as soon as I post this question. Just so you know.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/13/technology/edward-snowden-pardon-obama/index.html
Posted in these groups: NSAImages Barack ObamaI 1 snowden speaks vf Snowden74a76fb2 Espionage
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
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I have one major problem with Snowden.

He RAN FROM THE CONSEQUENCES of his actions. If you're going to stand up to the man, because you think the man is wrong, you stick around for the consequences.

It's one thing to knowingly break a law you think is unjust (which he admits to). It's another thing to release classified information to another person you know is not authorized to have it, violating your non-disclosure agreement (which you VOLUNTARILY entered into), again readily admitting to. All of these can be "justified" if you stick around for your Day in Court.

If you run, you're a coward. You're not a patriot. Outside of being a traitor (which I don't believe he meets the Constitutional definition for), he's $^&*%( coward. He was more interested in saving his own $^&$*&% skin, than doing the right thing. He could have done all the above and turned himself in. Manning did. Manning didn't run. Say what you will about Manning; not a coward. Stayed behind and lived with the consequences of his actions.

Snowden didn't. Patriots do.
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SGM Chief Executive Officer (Ceo)
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6 y
I apologize if you took any personal offense at my post. I merely made an observation that I didn't think your logic or expression of it was as squared away as the many outstanding Signal Corps officers I'd worked with over the years. You'd have to be pretty damned squared away to fit in that category, though, so it shouldn't be taken as too terribly disappointing that you're not in their company, I suppose. In any case, it's not like I accused you of falling out of a deuce and a half or something. Lighten up just a little bit - it's a serious discussion, but it doesn't all have to be humorless.

As to supporting information:
1. Waterboarding?
"We know they performed other forms of torture and abuse as well - against international law. But, I'm sure that those are only things they did in violation of the law. " What other forms of torture and abuse, where and by whom, on whom, and when? Was any of this conducted on Americans, as you claimed earlier? What are your sources for all this? Your insinuation of other, untold abuses and torture; what is it you are implying? What are your sources?
2. Extraordinary rendition flights? Okay, reportedly some prisoners were flown to other countries where those countries' conducted interrogations of the prisoners and shared the information they learned with us. Any kind of proof this was ever done on an American prisoner? Sources (reliable ones only, please).
3. Torture? What some people consider "torture" others don't. Who committed acts of "torture," under whose definition of "torture," where, when, upon whom? Sources please.
4. NSA Warrantless Surveillance? "We know that the NSA performs illegal warrantless searches and invasions of privacy every day. I have no reason to believe that US the rights of US citizens who may be suspected of terrorism are being protected by the government when it's been demonstrated that they are routinely violated." Please describe any instances of "illegal wireless searches" or other "warrantless surveillance" and "invasions of privacy" of American citizens "every day" by NSA, and the sources of your information. Please explain what rights an American citizen suspected of terrorism still has, which U.S. government agencies would be authorized to conduct any kind of surveillance of that American citizen (or green card holder or otherwise legal resident), and what the limits of that surveillance are, under the Constitution and current law. Then describe how those rights or laws are routinely violiated and by whom. Sources please.

Were any of these instances in 1-4 followed up by any investigative committees or agencies and, in fact, found to be illegal, factual, actual events that occurred as you have reported them? Were charges ever initiated against those responsible for these illegal acts? What were the results of these charges? If no charges were filed, why not?

Thank you very much.
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SPC Infantryman
SPC (Join to see)
6 y
Would you send Einstein back to Germany because he broke the law? Too extreme? What about North Korean escapees? They are breaking the law by fleeing.
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SPC Infantryman
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6 y
SGM (Join to see) - Dear SGM. H.

I want you to know I've thought about this a lot. Mulling it over, as a soldiers first duty is to their conscience.

As a CIB holding infantryman, I've never had to be told who to shoot ever. I've always felt a clear understanding of the ROE, and who and why I'm engaging. I reflected on every briefing and op order.

I tried to narrow it down to when kills were the mission and reduced it to ambushes and raids. On an ambush, in our ao at least, we know who to shoot because their setting an ied up. Raid wise, we typically capture anyone who isn't shooting.

If I came across Snowden would he shoot at me? Would he even be armed? Maybe I'm copping out to policy here but I couldn't think of a situation were I'd feel endangered by him enough to not even take him captive.

At the end of the day I would like to think I wouldn't follow that order. I don't want to kill the enemy unless necessary. Maybe that makes me bad infantry. I don't see how killing this man accomplishes anything. Even if he broke the law, I think it was in the interest of the American people.

What if he had leaked the redacted pages of the 9/11 commission report? Would you still trust the same organization if you knew they let in the Hijackers after immigration denied them?

I guess I'd get kicked out again, or jailed who knows. I think it's a hard right over easy wrong scenario tbh. And yes I said again. I received a general under honorable discharge, which I know what that means in our community, that I am a shitbag.

However, I hope you know I gave this a lot of thought and consideration with the highest esteemed ideals of what it means to be an honorable and virtuous soldier. I will gladly follow up any response.
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SGM Chief Executive Officer (Ceo)
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6 y
SPC (Join to see) that is a very well reasoned, thoughtful, and I believe accurate response. In an actual combat or live-fire situation, you wouldn't have time to think that all through, but it sounds to me like your situational reaction would take you to that very same spot. I believe your internal values, training, and instincts tell you that is the correct way. And that is exactly where you should be. I'm proud that your leaders have helped you get to exactly this point, young man! You are modeling the example we want our ideal fighting man to model. You display the moral character in those situations in today's tactical battlefield where it's critical to make smart decisions immediately. I have a great deal of respect for you.
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CPT Jack Durish
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Edited 6 y ago
I don't think he's either a patriot or a traitor. He's someone who took a principled stand and should be prepared to reap the reward or suffer the consequences. His worst choice was running away. BTW, it should be apparent by now that the classification of secrets is being abused, used for political purposes, just as it was when I was handling the secrets of the nation. I was hoping and praying that Daniel Ellsberg's trial for leaking the Pentagon Papers would settle the issue. Sadly, the politicians made sure the trial would be aborted (as I suspect Snowden's trial would have been aborted) to avoid facing this issue. BTW, as to your original question, I'd prefer that President Obama go golfing and stay on the course for the rest of his term.
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Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
6 y
MAJ (Join to see) - That is complete BS. On what basis do you believe he would have been killed?
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Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
6 y
CPT Jack Durish - They weren't. Ellsberg didn't flee the country and was in the end set free. Snowden didn't release similar information and has in fact hurt our national security without any understanding about what he was doing or what he was releasing.
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CDR William Kempner
CDR William Kempner
6 y
Well said. If Snowden was a real patriot, he'd have hung around. Going over to the other side for sanctuary is NOT being a patriot. And same thing with current POTUS. At this point he has 121 days and a wake-up before we are through with him. The more golfing he does, the less damage he can do.
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MAJ Signal Officer
MAJ (Join to see)
6 y
TSgt Frank Shirley - I don't think the President is to blame for everything. I prefer to hold people accountable for their own actions, not the actions of others. However, the President IS responsible for the expansion and continuance of the Patriot Act which is an affront to the ideal of personal liberty and privacy in the United States. The President IS responsible for the expansion of anti-protest laws that make it illegal to protest or disrupt events from within an area secured by Secret Service. He isn't perfect, but he's been pretty good for the last eight years. I'd vote for him again instead of the two people we have running now.
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MCPO Roger Collins
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I believe there may be an adjoining cell with "Chelsea Manning", a match made in somewhere. They could compare notes and stuff.
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CW5 Desk Officer
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6 y
Another great idea, MCPO Roger Collins!
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MSG Wade Huffman
MSG Wade Huffman
6 y
Excellent! If only there was a way to make that happen!
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PO1 Jack Howell
PO1 Jack Howell
6 y
Maybe he can be given the same cell that John Walker was put in.
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