Posted on Nov 20, 2019
Should President Trump provide credibility back to UCMJ by charging to start with: Admiral Green, Adm Gilday, Secretary Spencer?
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For dereliction of Duty, Insubordination, and whatever else fits for their efforts to work around the Commander in Chiefs wish for the military.
In my opinion Green should immediately face the maximum reduction in Rank and be dishonorably discharged by President Trump.
In my opinion Green should immediately face the maximum reduction in Rank and be dishonorably discharged by President Trump.
UCMJ
Toxic Leadership
Senior Leaders
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 188
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I think POTUS needs to stay out of UCMJ actions. I also wonder why this one guy was singled out and all those other SMs skated. JMHO.
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Such extreme micromanagement falls within the realm of the enlisted.
Under ordinary circumstances one would imagine a CIC's time and attention would be filled by other more weighty matters.
Better schedule a burning ceremony with the appropriate level of pomp and circumstance to mark the passing of: AR 600-20, 2-1.b & c.
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/11717264/ar-600-20-army-command-policy-army-publishing-directorate-
*****
BONUS QUESTION:
Now we just wait to see whether enlistments undergo a sharp rise or a precipitous decline. How difficult do you predict things are going to get for recruiters next year? How difficult?
Under ordinary circumstances one would imagine a CIC's time and attention would be filled by other more weighty matters.
Better schedule a burning ceremony with the appropriate level of pomp and circumstance to mark the passing of: AR 600-20, 2-1.b & c.
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/11717264/ar-600-20-army-command-policy-army-publishing-directorate-
*****
BONUS QUESTION:
Now we just wait to see whether enlistments undergo a sharp rise or a precipitous decline. How difficult do you predict things are going to get for recruiters next year? How difficult?
AR 600-20, Army Command Policy - Army Publishing Directorate ...
AR 600-20, Army Command Policy - Army Publishing Directorate Read more about commanders, ensure, installation, reporting, complaint and civilian.
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For those claiming to be in support of the rule of law, UCMJ, etc. on this thread: I would honestly like to know your opinion about (1) CPO Gallagher and his willful insubordination on Fox News days ago, detailed here (https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/navy-seal-eddie-gallagher-trashes-superiors-in-fox-appearance-complete-insubordination), and likewise (2) Trump's decision to pardon Army First Lieutenant Clint Lorance and Army Major Mathew Golsteyn. There is Fox News video on YouTube if you want to see and hear the full context of Gallagher's comments.
I'll be watching for thoughtful responses. Hope that there will be some, instead of lecturing me on how we *should* act during wartime regardless of what the law says.
I'll be watching for thoughtful responses. Hope that there will be some, instead of lecturing me on how we *should* act during wartime regardless of what the law says.
Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher Trashes Superiors in Fox Appearance: ‘Complete Insubordination’
Eddie Gallagher, the Navy SEAL previously facing a war crimes trial, serves under Secretary of the Navy Richard Spencer and Rear Adm. Collin Green, but that didn't stop him from publicly trashing them on a Sunday appearance on Fox News.
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SPC John Canning
What did he violate in UCMJ? It seems like he addresses the concerns he has from unlawful actions of his command. The guy retires in 5 days.
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No, they should not. That would be "retaliation" which is expressly forbidden in Federal Law. It's probably in the UCMJ too. Gallagher was acquitted of most of the charges. His rank was restored by POTUS. That should be end of story. Now if they actually do remove his Trident or kick him out due to all of this, there is a problem...again, retaliation. Until an action is take to negatively effect Gallagher because of all of this, it should be left alone. There is no basis at this point to charge the Chain of Command with anything.
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SPC John Canning
Some have brought up mutiny... Threatening to quit to avoid a lawful order is worthy especially in the media cause he overruled you hence the firing so far of the Sec Nav
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I've been in spirited conversations over this issue, n the past few days. Personally I think It stinks, if I were President Trump and one of my military officers were trying to do a " end run " around someone that I pardoned. I would suggest he/she resign their commission. For a number of reasons.
1. It border lines double jeopardy, by looking for another reason to punish someone on a ( just because ) ego trip.
2. This action is saying " once you screw up, their is no redemption for you ever "
3. You make this Petty Officer out to be a Martyr, thereby making this issue a never ending story. And causing future generations to give pause about serving in the future.
4. When the next Seal breaks the ( Law ) in any capacity. ( Since everyone is emphasizing " the Law" ) will you give him/ her the boot too? Or will the excuse of ( but this is different ) be used.
Mind you Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
5. The man and his family has suffered enough, don't you think he has learned from his errors?
6. What if some fortune 500 company considers him a hero and hires him to an executive position in charge of hiring? Do you really think anyone from the Navy will get due consideration after the way he was treated?
Everyone including his Commander should step back and take a deep breath, before thumbing their noses at the President's pardon of this Petty Officer.
1. It border lines double jeopardy, by looking for another reason to punish someone on a ( just because ) ego trip.
2. This action is saying " once you screw up, their is no redemption for you ever "
3. You make this Petty Officer out to be a Martyr, thereby making this issue a never ending story. And causing future generations to give pause about serving in the future.
4. When the next Seal breaks the ( Law ) in any capacity. ( Since everyone is emphasizing " the Law" ) will you give him/ her the boot too? Or will the excuse of ( but this is different ) be used.
Mind you Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
5. The man and his family has suffered enough, don't you think he has learned from his errors?
6. What if some fortune 500 company considers him a hero and hires him to an executive position in charge of hiring? Do you really think anyone from the Navy will get due consideration after the way he was treated?
Everyone including his Commander should step back and take a deep breath, before thumbing their noses at the President's pardon of this Petty Officer.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
SPC John Canning Nope. Sorry, wrong again. You claim to be an expert on leadership but have no bona fides. I point to my rank as an easily identifiable and understandable credential within the military community. It is not my only leadership credential, but it is the most easily recognized and understood in this community. I ask you what your leadership credentials are and you resort to denigrating both my person and my character rather than provide ANY sort of leadership credential (and I would not really count "VP of family real estate office" as leadership cred, but you didnt't even bother to throw that one out there.)
As to whether I know how to lead, the Army seems to think I could... They promoted me a few times. My leaders seemed to think I could, as I was continuously the choice for temporary 1SG when the 1SG was out for surgery, on leave, relieved, etc.
My Soldiers semmed to think so, as I have been thanked on numerous occasions for helping them become NCOs and Warrants. But hey, if you just want to call me a douche to hide your own ignorance, that is cool.
I did not once say the order wan't legal. I DID say that an order had not yet been issued before one had been. I did say that if/when the President issues such order it COULD be illegal, depending on how it was worded. I DID say that the SecNav acknowledged the order but chose not to obey it. I DID say that sometimes it is the job of a leader to accept personal loss (like being fired) to do what is right. But you, of course, knowing so much more than me about leadership, can tell me where I am wrong in that.
My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind: accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers. I take the ass-chewing (or firing) so they don't have to and so they can get on with accomplishing the mission. At the end of the day, I HOPE that my rater is happy with the job I (and my Soldiers) have done. But I MAKE SURE that I (and my Soldiers) have gotten the job done, while taking care of them the best I can.
As to whether I know how to lead, the Army seems to think I could... They promoted me a few times. My leaders seemed to think I could, as I was continuously the choice for temporary 1SG when the 1SG was out for surgery, on leave, relieved, etc.
My Soldiers semmed to think so, as I have been thanked on numerous occasions for helping them become NCOs and Warrants. But hey, if you just want to call me a douche to hide your own ignorance, that is cool.
I did not once say the order wan't legal. I DID say that an order had not yet been issued before one had been. I did say that if/when the President issues such order it COULD be illegal, depending on how it was worded. I DID say that the SecNav acknowledged the order but chose not to obey it. I DID say that sometimes it is the job of a leader to accept personal loss (like being fired) to do what is right. But you, of course, knowing so much more than me about leadership, can tell me where I am wrong in that.
My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind: accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers. I take the ass-chewing (or firing) so they don't have to and so they can get on with accomplishing the mission. At the end of the day, I HOPE that my rater is happy with the job I (and my Soldiers) have done. But I MAKE SURE that I (and my Soldiers) have gotten the job done, while taking care of them the best I can.
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SPC John Canning
You see I don’t need to point at my military career or my rank to identify as a leader. I have turned around several failing businesses and made investors happy. I have built my own real estate company, but hey that was easy.
Maybe you are a good leader I never served with you. Though like I said I usually find that the individuals who identify by rank to be lacking in actual Leadership ability. I mean c’mon the military and Army are infamous for promoting toxic leaders.
So my question for you is which is worse Trump pardoning a Seal or Obama pardoning traitors?
Happy Thanksgiving
SFC Casey O'Mally
Maybe you are a good leader I never served with you. Though like I said I usually find that the individuals who identify by rank to be lacking in actual Leadership ability. I mean c’mon the military and Army are infamous for promoting toxic leaders.
So my question for you is which is worse Trump pardoning a Seal or Obama pardoning traitors?
Happy Thanksgiving
SFC Casey O'Mally
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SFC Casey O'Mally
SPC John Canning If you are referencing Chelsea, she was not pardones, she had her sentence commuted. Which is different. And from what I can tell, CPO Gallagher ALSO was not pardoned, but his rank was restored. Which has the same effect but is a legal distinction.
As to which is worse? Both are horrible. Neither was right (although both were legal). But if I am forced to choose, I would say that letting a war criminal off the hook is worse than letting a traitor off the hook. I am a self-sacrificer by nature - my first job is to take care of others. In this light, I would rather we were fair to the rest of the world (holding war criminals accountable) than fair to ourselves (holding traitors accountable). Of course, given the choice, I would rather hold BOTH accountable, and I found both uses of Presidential power egregious, even if lawful.
As to which is worse? Both are horrible. Neither was right (although both were legal). But if I am forced to choose, I would say that letting a war criminal off the hook is worse than letting a traitor off the hook. I am a self-sacrificer by nature - my first job is to take care of others. In this light, I would rather we were fair to the rest of the world (holding war criminals accountable) than fair to ourselves (holding traitors accountable). Of course, given the choice, I would rather hold BOTH accountable, and I found both uses of Presidential power egregious, even if lawful.
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Ok so all of you that think he should be reduced in rank and dishonorabley discharged do not really know what some seals are ordered to do. They are given instruction no evidence left behind of An American prescience and lets e honest the only way to accomplish this is to kill everyone within the perimeter of your objective. How can any soldier question another’s actions of you do not what there orders where?
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PO3 Nicholas Richards
Can either of you honestly tell me that a government using a 17 year old kid to do whatever he is ordered to do and then telling him at the age of 21 that there can no longer be someone like you in todays military and then throws you away like a piece of garbage and tells you if you ever tell anyone anything you will be charged with treason and war crimes and put in front of a firing squad is right
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PO3 Nicholas Richards
Some of those base rumors or legends overseas of Americans being worse then any terrorists or killing an allied nations politician or stealing mineral rights are not just stories or someone else trying to throw blame on the US
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PO3 Nicholas Richards
SFC Thomas Foreman your exactly right there if we are there to stop the war on terrosim and the fanatical Muslims as said then we would have to kill them all, but if we are there for greed and corruption then soldiers are just blindly following orders it’s not absurd it is simple logic religious fanatics will never quit being fanatics and the only way to stop terrosim is to wipe them out
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PO3 Nicholas Richards
SFC Thomas Foreman I apologize if I offended either of you but if a soldier does not believe in the reason we are fighting then they shouldn’t be fighting because it’s just going to cost others there lives, I am not some crazy who doesn’t know my but from a whole in the ground I have checked the financial records of many corporations in the last three years and I went all the way back to sep 11 and all the war on terrosim has actually achieved is to make some rich guys even more money at the cost of lives but if you take morality out of the picture and actually end the fanatical Islamic believers by killing them all no more lives would be sacrificed is it really that complicated all of us our Human Beings we all have the same basic needs food, water and shelter. Why is it that we allow other to take our freedoms and let them tell us what is right and wrong it’s because of the need for an emotional connection which leads to a superiority complex just like hitler had
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#45 couldn’t couldn’t “project credibility” to the sun coming up in the East tomorrow. Over 20 thousand documented lies since he too office. A “bro” friendship with Putin. 200,000 DEAD thanks to his Machiavellian response to Covid. Don’t forget that those who have served in the military are “suckers” & those who have died &/or been POW’s are “losers.” Credibility=ZERO!
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LTC Donell Kelly
SPC Canning, I hope that when you see the civil & criminal court proceedings, details of his activities, & convictions against #45 in the 5-10 yrs after he is voted out of office, that you will be: 1) be at peace with yourself over decisions you’ve made in the past; 2) be much better informed about the “real fake news” put out by Russian, Chinese, Iranian, Fox News, etc news bots trying to effect our national elections.
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