Posted on May 1, 2016
Should superdelegates or delegates as a whole be abolished?
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Posted in these groups: 
Election 2016
Republicans
Democrats
Democracy
Office of the President (POTUS)
Election 2016 Republicans Democrats Democracy Office of the President (POTUS)
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 32
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My opinion? The two party system is broken. The founders set up our election system with one simple rule: Of the People, By the People and For the People!! THE PEOPLE, not 2 different Jackass groups pushing each other around and using bullying tactics or out and out bribery to get you to vote their way.
What is the solution? I don't know, but it's going to take a fundamental transformation in the election process and in the hearts and minds of the population. Otherwise, we may as well give over the nation to whatever foreign power wants to try and fix it themselves. That is not an option for me.
What is the solution? I don't know, but it's going to take a fundamental transformation in the election process and in the hearts and minds of the population. Otherwise, we may as well give over the nation to whatever foreign power wants to try and fix it themselves. That is not an option for me.
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First let me apologize for the length of this post, but I wanted to let the first President who tended to wax long and aliquant about the subject of parties have his full quote.
We the people let these private groups decide our candidates for whatever reason, laziness, lack of knowledge, or lack of care.
There are other candidates running for President and other positions in government. They don’t have a chance at getting elected, because the people won’t pay any attention to them or at least not enough to get them on the ballet in all 50 states. They do have better results in local races, such as state elections. There are Libertarians, Constitutionalist, Socialist, and Green party candidates elected in local and state races. However they never seem to get enough attention and more importantly enough money to get the attention they need in our media driven elections.
John Adams Said: “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.”
George Washington Said: “The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty
Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.
It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.
There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.”
If we don’t want to see a two party system we must start finding others we can support and support them in every way.
We the people let these private groups decide our candidates for whatever reason, laziness, lack of knowledge, or lack of care.
There are other candidates running for President and other positions in government. They don’t have a chance at getting elected, because the people won’t pay any attention to them or at least not enough to get them on the ballet in all 50 states. They do have better results in local races, such as state elections. There are Libertarians, Constitutionalist, Socialist, and Green party candidates elected in local and state races. However they never seem to get enough attention and more importantly enough money to get the attention they need in our media driven elections.
John Adams Said: “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.”
George Washington Said: “The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty
Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.
It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.
There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.”
If we don’t want to see a two party system we must start finding others we can support and support them in every way.
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SSG Warren Swan
SFC that was an awesome post and I believe it. To me the best part was "“There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.” We have been wrestling with this for cwnturies and will continue to do so until we realize there are others that are just as capable to lead without having a (D) or (R) attached to your name.
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SFC Ron Peck
SSG Warren Swan - That's right we need to start actively searching for the best person for the job. Not what party they belong too.
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SSG Warren Swan
SFC Ron Peck - Sanders wouldn't have stood a chance running as an Indie. Both sides would've stomped on him at the same time. Now when the Starbucks owner said he'd run as an indie, he had a chance to shake up the "standard", but he didn't stay the course. I don't think he even got on the track. But we DO need alternative candidates who are passionate about their causes, wants to include all of America in their causes, and wants to find solutions to the problems...not finger pointing to place blame anywhere but on who it really belongs to.
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SFC Ron Peck
SSG Warren Swan - The problem with Independent Party, Constitution Party or Libertarian Party etc. are many. They don’t get the media attention of the main parties. There voters are told a vote for them is a vote for one of the main party players by defacto taking a vote away from the other main party candidate. People always fall for that. They don’t get the financial support it takes to get on the ballots in all 50 states. They don’t get the financial support it takes to run a candidate for President, this year the Democrats and Republicans will spend $2 Billion each.
I’m sure there is a cure for all their problems but it will take someone smarter than me to figure it out. But it is to late this year to get it started, they won’t be able to get on all the ballots on time, some states have already closed for ballot qualification.
Maybe they could get their Party Platforms together this year and run some off year candidates for congress or senate, line up some high quality candidates for President & VP and get them out talking on the cable channels to have a chance in 2020
I’m sure there is a cure for all their problems but it will take someone smarter than me to figure it out. But it is to late this year to get it started, they won’t be able to get on all the ballots on time, some states have already closed for ballot qualification.
Maybe they could get their Party Platforms together this year and run some off year candidates for congress or senate, line up some high quality candidates for President & VP and get them out talking on the cable channels to have a chance in 2020
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I believe that the right to decide our leaders belongs to the people and not the select few who think it is their right to make those selections for us. Registration should be by party and only those who are registered with that party should be allowed to vote in that party's primary. No crossover voting should be allowed as party members alone should make the decision as to who shall represent them. The candidate winning the highest vote total in a particular state should be declared the winner of that state. The amount of each state's proportional representation in the nominating process should depend on its population similar to the "one man one vote" idea that reapportions legislative seats. When all states and territories have voted the candidate who wins the majority of the proportional voting strength of all states and territories combined shall be declared the nominee of that party. Delegates to the party's convention could be selected by Congressional Districts and be authorized to determine that party's platform. This (or something like it) would allow the voters of each party to have the final say on who should represent their views instead of a few establishment politicians and their financial backers making the decision for us.
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SSG Warren Swan
I had to read this twice. I misunderstood what you were saying and on the second time, it made sense.
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Yes, as well as the electoral college BS! Our votes don't count in a presidential election anyway. The president will be selected by those who control the gubment regardless of how many actual votes a person gets. Besides, we have seen in the past 2 elections the blatant violation of voting laws and yet no one did anything about it. I am sure it has happened in prior elections as well but it never was known or reported. The thing is, you SHOULD vote anyway because who knows, at some point America and her gubment might not be so corrupt. Pipe dream I know but you still gotta hope!
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SSG Warren Swan
I know for me not voting is wrong. It was a right that many lost lives for me to secure the ability to. In my personal opinion, as messed up as I am, I cannot have a "good" feeling voting for HRC or Trump. Maybe if there was a solid indie, that would be where I'd go, but not for what is in front of me now. The WH is NOT a dynasty, and should NOT be used that way. Bush wasn't the first to do it, but he should've been the last. I thought the electoral college was in the Constitution?
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Parties & delegates should be abolished. parties are not what the founding fathers intended at all.
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SSG Warren Swan
Nice thought, but you take away the evil you know and replace it with the evil you don't. There will always be some kind of "party" system in politics.
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Delegates should act on the votes of the public. Superdelegates need to be abolished. Any DILUTION of the PUBLIC'S BALLOT should never be compromised. Who created a super delegate and precisely what was the stated need for a superdelegate? Maybe the old entrenched party politicians realized they would lose their " lobbyist " perks, not to mention the very FACT that the WILL OF THE PEOPLE would be trashed for the sake of ego.
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PO1 (Join to see)
Delegates deprive the voter of knowing whether this constitutional republic is acting in the best interest of the people. Super delegates act in the best interest of what the party power brokers would like in addition to NULLING any vote the delegates place for the people. Super delegates are simply a highbrow maneuver to ensure the party powers DO NOT LOSE their clout. In my opinion, any delegate or super delegate that fails to vote for the candidate chosen by the POPULAR VOTE of the PEOPLE, is a SLAP IN THE FACE of every patriotic citizen.
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It's a great question, one I've gone back and forth on over the last decade. I don't claim to have a political science degree but I think I've got the basics and it's important to see how we got here. Part of the reason for delegates, I believe, was technology and geography. In the 1700s you simply couldn't count and validate every registered voter over a several hundred thousand square mile area in a reasonable amount of time. And remember that the Founding Father eschewed and were leery of democracy (which was somewhat validated by the excesses of the French Revolution) and were committed to a republic, in which an educated and experienced group of men with skin in the game did their best to pick their next leaders rather than leave it to the mob who could be swayed by pandering and unrealistic rhetorical promises.
More recently, we should remember why the DNC has so-called super delegates in the first place and why the RNC, perhaps secretly, envies it. Super delegates were put in place following the landslide loss of McGovern and the single term of Carter. They were a way of party leaders to influence the primary process by regaining some of the power which had been lost in 1968, and had indirectly led to populist but unelectable or unrelectable candidates. While the RNC can claim that its process is more small D "democratic" than the DNC, I wonder if it wishes it had a super delegate system which could have negated Trump's rise, who may become an unelectable nominee.
More recently, we should remember why the DNC has so-called super delegates in the first place and why the RNC, perhaps secretly, envies it. Super delegates were put in place following the landslide loss of McGovern and the single term of Carter. They were a way of party leaders to influence the primary process by regaining some of the power which had been lost in 1968, and had indirectly led to populist but unelectable or unrelectable candidates. While the RNC can claim that its process is more small D "democratic" than the DNC, I wonder if it wishes it had a super delegate system which could have negated Trump's rise, who may become an unelectable nominee.
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SSG Warren Swan
Sir, I'm not sure even if they had it, that would've been enough. The RNC enacted the whole delegate thing in 2012. It finally gets a test run now, and they're seeing how big a failure it was with the way the delegates were "bought" from supporting other candidates and even going back and awarding Cruz delegates that Trump clearly should've had being he won the state and the 50% of the popular vote.
What killed the GOP this cycle was this HUGE list of "nobodies" who wanted their turn, and when things didn't go their way, they bitched amongst themselves publicly. That is NOT helping their cause. In the last election they did not have women and Hispanics in large quantities like Obama did. It was even written that they needed to work harder to get more of both involved. What struck me as weird is they didn't include Blacks in there. Now the DNC is just as crooked, but they're all inclusive. Their minority base is substantially strong, and they actively go out looking for more minorities to add to the ranks. LGBT is a thorn in the GOP's side. From Cheney running his gums on how wrong it was to be gay to having to eat crow the moment his own daughter comes out as gay. They conceded the Black vote when Romney made the 47% joke, and rather than go all out to show they're past that now and want to be more inclusive, they said F it and them too. Being hawks also didn't help the RNC, not voting on the ACA, stalling on the SCOTUS nominee, and the Clinton Bengazi ordeal did NOT help them one bit. Your party leader admits this is a farce, you have numerous peers saying the same thing, and then Gowdy is left calling them mistaken and liars? This was NOT a good election cycle for them, and it's not over with yet.
What killed the GOP this cycle was this HUGE list of "nobodies" who wanted their turn, and when things didn't go their way, they bitched amongst themselves publicly. That is NOT helping their cause. In the last election they did not have women and Hispanics in large quantities like Obama did. It was even written that they needed to work harder to get more of both involved. What struck me as weird is they didn't include Blacks in there. Now the DNC is just as crooked, but they're all inclusive. Their minority base is substantially strong, and they actively go out looking for more minorities to add to the ranks. LGBT is a thorn in the GOP's side. From Cheney running his gums on how wrong it was to be gay to having to eat crow the moment his own daughter comes out as gay. They conceded the Black vote when Romney made the 47% joke, and rather than go all out to show they're past that now and want to be more inclusive, they said F it and them too. Being hawks also didn't help the RNC, not voting on the ACA, stalling on the SCOTUS nominee, and the Clinton Bengazi ordeal did NOT help them one bit. Your party leader admits this is a farce, you have numerous peers saying the same thing, and then Gowdy is left calling them mistaken and liars? This was NOT a good election cycle for them, and it's not over with yet.
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SSG Warren Swan Both parties are so aggregiously behaving. Love or hate Mr. Trump, there is a concerted and shameful attack on his character. The fact that Hillary is a known sociopath and narcissist and yet could be elected.
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SSG Warren Swan
BELIEVE ME...I AGREE WITH YOU. I don't like Trump any more than I could throw him, BUT I see what the GOP/RNC is doing to him and that is WRONG and extremely shady. He is putting the RNC out there for all to see, and they're going to use every trick to fight the people's choice? YES he will be destroyed by Hillary in a debate, YES he will not win the election, but to openly destroy your party solely based off who you personally don't like is wrong. If the GOP will do this to Trump, then who else would they enact sudden rules for to push them to the side? Politics is a dirty business, but this cycle is the worst ever. The Dems have it a little better being they let the people get rid of others, and while HRC and Bernie are arguing, it's not on the level the RNC is dealing with.
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SSG Warren Swan
MSG Todd B. - MSG, I can respect your opinion, but HRC will eat Trump based of the fact he IS Trump. Trump cannot handle being questioned by ANY woman. Kelley proved that straight up. HRC will use that very tactic on him knowing he will fall for it. Trump could bring up all kinds of things, but the ONE thing Trump equates to "power" is money. In this case HRC doesn't have anywhere near what he does, BUT she knows what true power is when dealing with foreign leaders and shaping outcomes. The Wall Street bailout, and other things she supported, he will bring them up. It would be a VERY bad move on his part. She will then make him admit like Kelley did your companies went bankrupt four times, and the federal government bailed you out along with you pandering to investors. The dems crowds will be brought up...until she digs in and asks him who initiated the whole thing? In all fairness Trump did advocate violence in his rallies, practiced racism when his staff kicked out black students BEFORE the rally even started. Not because they were doing anything, but the thought that they WILL do something. He'll bring up Bengazi and that's fine. He'll even use her famous quote the GOP ran with, without mentioning the ENTIRE quote. She'll go in on his "military training" that was harder than anything those of us in the profession ever had, his draft dodging (can't use Bill this time. You're running against her). His tax plan that he admitted helps those with larger accounts. The wall that won't ever get built. That has been in the works for over 20 years and has NOT been finished yet. He's going to mention how he predicted the Iraq invasion was a mistake and she voted for it. That was already fact checked and he isn't telling the truth. He said it was a mistake AFTER we were already there and engaged. She'd also mention that many of his staff in foreign policy were former flag officers who were cut from the team for comments they made while AD, mistakes made while AD, or are the rejects that NO ONE in either party wanted. We could go on and on, but this is important to me; Trump made some racist and bigoted claims on minorities when he began his campaign. He never walked them back, never apologized, just doubled down on them stating the very people who he disrespected "love him". The Latino population is the largest growing segment in the US. Even the RNC admitted that when Obama was reelected. They wanted the woman and Hispanic vote. They may as well forget that this year.
Trump supports the lifting of the ban on transgenders using the bathroom they identify with. I have my own issues with it, but the data that has been shown on TV and here on RP doesn't support the ban. All this mess about raping and hurting folks data wise is not there. I'm not saying this won't happen, but even while I question it, until someone does the action, they deserve the ability to continue doing what they've been doing for decades. If I were to use the "potential" chance of a crime happening as a means to segregate someone then the police should come and lock me up. I'm black, and "will" commit a crime of some kind, and to protect the masses who are scared of me, I should be locked away as a preventative measure. Also the LGBT is a protected class that should be free from discrimination just like being black or white.
Can't argue on the delegates thing. The Dems started theirs decades ago, and it's been known they were there. They even published some of those delegates names, so it's not like they were hidden. The GOP started theirs in 2012. No fanfare, no nothing UNTIL Ryan mentions on TV that the public doesn't decide who gets the nod, THEY DO. If HRC had used the RNC's platform for delegates, she'd be long done and gotten the nod.
I'm not voting this cycle being I don't like the menu in front of me. I've been talked to, lectured, and my decision is final. I do not need a walking contradiction who's only way to deal with something is to insult it and hide behind money as his "armor". I won't vote for HRC being I do not believe the WH should be a way station for family members to be president. I'm tired of the two party system that beats down new ideas from those that are indie minded, use religion as a litmus test to see if you're a "true American", or feel it is ok to openly or privately be prejudiced (Mitt Romney and the 47%"joke"). I disagree with the fact that candidates who "want" our vote don't come to us first. They break bread with billionaires who in turn are going to be asking for some serious payback if that candidate makes it in. No election cycle is perfect, but this BAR NONE has exposed the weakness that the two party system has.
Trump supports the lifting of the ban on transgenders using the bathroom they identify with. I have my own issues with it, but the data that has been shown on TV and here on RP doesn't support the ban. All this mess about raping and hurting folks data wise is not there. I'm not saying this won't happen, but even while I question it, until someone does the action, they deserve the ability to continue doing what they've been doing for decades. If I were to use the "potential" chance of a crime happening as a means to segregate someone then the police should come and lock me up. I'm black, and "will" commit a crime of some kind, and to protect the masses who are scared of me, I should be locked away as a preventative measure. Also the LGBT is a protected class that should be free from discrimination just like being black or white.
Can't argue on the delegates thing. The Dems started theirs decades ago, and it's been known they were there. They even published some of those delegates names, so it's not like they were hidden. The GOP started theirs in 2012. No fanfare, no nothing UNTIL Ryan mentions on TV that the public doesn't decide who gets the nod, THEY DO. If HRC had used the RNC's platform for delegates, she'd be long done and gotten the nod.
I'm not voting this cycle being I don't like the menu in front of me. I've been talked to, lectured, and my decision is final. I do not need a walking contradiction who's only way to deal with something is to insult it and hide behind money as his "armor". I won't vote for HRC being I do not believe the WH should be a way station for family members to be president. I'm tired of the two party system that beats down new ideas from those that are indie minded, use religion as a litmus test to see if you're a "true American", or feel it is ok to openly or privately be prejudiced (Mitt Romney and the 47%"joke"). I disagree with the fact that candidates who "want" our vote don't come to us first. They break bread with billionaires who in turn are going to be asking for some serious payback if that candidate makes it in. No election cycle is perfect, but this BAR NONE has exposed the weakness that the two party system has.
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SSgt (Join to see)
SSG Warren Swan Hillary would lose 57-43% :) Besides Hillary is evil. I remember her in Little Rock. Bad bad, evil woman....
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SSG Warren Swan
SSgt (Join to see) - I will not argue she is a POS, but she has the minority vote. That goes beyond the black and Hispanics, she has her fair share of women backing her regardless of race, the LGBT community has been gathering steam for awhile now, and the GOP's "standard" was to court older, white, established voters. These last few election cycles the GOP has had a Black man onstage, and this year a Woman, and a man of Indian decent. Good move, but too late. They're learning that the "traditional" GOP is getting older and some are passing away, so they need "new and younger" blood to reach the youth, and disenfranchised minorities. Trump won't win. I still believe the BEST thing the GOP/RNC had to beat HRC was Kasich and they did everything but support him. No one liked Cruz...even in his own band of Tea Partiers. Trump is a buffoon; an ape of sorts. Beats his chest, can't understand what he says, and HRC and Megyn Kellley will be feeding him bananas on that stage.
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The concept of superdelegate is anti-democratic and elitist. It is contrary to the purpose of the primaries. I would say yes, it needs to be abolished.
But then again, we are talking about politics, the whole thing has been getting so corrupted, that it is starting to resemble politics in a banana republic. Extrememly sad, especially for someone like myself, who grew up in Puerto Rico, admiring how clean politics were in the USA, and how Americans would go on with their lives after election. Unfortunately, this is no longer true.
But then again, we are talking about politics, the whole thing has been getting so corrupted, that it is starting to resemble politics in a banana republic. Extrememly sad, especially for someone like myself, who grew up in Puerto Rico, admiring how clean politics were in the USA, and how Americans would go on with their lives after election. Unfortunately, this is no longer true.
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