Posted on Apr 5, 2016
MAJ FAO - Europe
10.1K
47
42
7
7
0
The APFT scores are normed by age and gender. This, to me, is sensible, as a ton of research shows that physical capacity differs across genders and age ranges.

My preferred response to this sort of question is either that the APFT needs to be normed for age and gender.

However, other factors impact physical performance. Should APFT scores be normed for these other factors?
Posted in these groups: P542 APFTChecklist icon 2 StandardsImgres Physical Training
Avatar feed
Responses: 8
MSG Brad Sand
3
3
0
MAJ (Join to see)

As I considered the question, with the changes being pushed down on the military, I wondered "Should there be any normed factors? IF we are going to bring women into combat arms jobs, maybe we need to gender and age from the equation? Can one meet the requirement? Maybe instead of trying to change the factors for the pegs, we need to look at setting standards for the hole we are placing pegs? Make physical standards for the various jobs?
(3)
Comment
(0)
MAJ FAO - Europe
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
I'm a big fan of identifying physical standards for jobs, and the Army is in the process of doing this. At the same time, though, on a physical capacity test like the APFT, scientifically valid norming is necessary to account for differences---and I suspect environmental norming is sensible, too---the Air Force and Marines apparently norm for elevation, why not the Army (or did I miss this somehow)?
(1)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
>1 y
The issue with "job based standards" is that you can have a Motor T guy (chosen randomly) at both an Infantry BN and a Supply BN. What score does he maintain? Since APFT is a "promotion factor" it now became easier for the same guy to be promoted based on the unit he went to, when his score is identical. It inserts Subjectivity into an Objective Measure.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MAJ FAO - Europe
3
3
0
These other factors include things identified in the Triad of Fitness (sleep, nutrition, activity). They also could be things like elevation, pollution, wind speed and direction, temperature, or other environmental conditions.
I live in Ankara, Turkey, where the elevation is about 1100 meters, where pollution is pretty bad, and where its quite windy. I was previously stationed in Cyprus, which has the worst air pollution in Europe. Things like elevation hugely impact run times; in prep for my last APFT, I was struggling to break the 13:36 I needed for 100 points while running in Ankara; I took the AFPT, though, at Ft. Eustis (elevation: 3 meters) and, purely based on elevation change (and maybe pollution and a couple other factors) in literally a couple days dropped more than 30 seconds from my run time.
We live in an age where we can model just about any condition using scientific methods. Should the Army create an algorithm for APFT scores that accounts for more than just age and gender norming? For example, the Army could say a "standard" APFT is administered at sea level, on a perfectly straight and flat 2-mile course, in a location with zero air pollution, no wind, and at, say, a temperature of 62 degrees...and then build an algorithm to norm the score according to differences. We could also add things like: hours of sleep the night prior (with 9 being ideal, for example) and the average number of hours of sleep per day the previous 30 days; a nutrition factor (if a Soldier was forced to eat MREs for a month prior to the APFT, that really isn't fair to the Soldier); etc, etc.
Or is such an approach just "too hard" for the Army, meaning the non-scientific way we evaluate fitness currently is just fine?
I've previously stated that I believed that APFT scores should be required entries on evaluations. My view is shifting: I think now that I believe the Army is right, that the APFT is really just a PASS/FAIL event, and that scores aren't all that important. Maybe the Army should do away with the score concept in favor of simple pass/fail standards normed by age and gender (and maybe other environmental factors)? Especially if we aren't going to incorporate an assessment of environmental factors into scoring the APFT, I believe it should be a PASS/FAIL event and that we should eliminate the score tables in favor of simple PASS/FAIL raw scores normed by age and gender.
(3)
Comment
(0)
MAJ FAO - Europe
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
TSgt Joshua Duplin - Yes, the AFI is very underwhelming. It should be much more giving!
(0)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
>1 y
MAJ (Join to see) - Preaching to the choir! I've said for years that the PFT only measures how well you study for the test, not how physically fit you are.

I'm extremely fit, but I doubt I'd pass the test at this stage in my life. That said, I know I could ruck folks into the dirt without a problem (my endurance is off the charts), but I'm not going to do well on the SU/PU portion because I don't focus on that portion of the test. Give me a month and I'd be fine though
(1)
Reply
(0)
1LT Commander
1LT (Join to see)
>1 y
Sir, I personally think that accommodating for "hours of sleep" the night prior or within the last 30 days is utterly ridiculous. I see where you're going with that, and I am aware of the repercussions that lack of sleep will have on your level of fitness, however, Soldiers are responsible for ensuring that they are going to sleep at a reasonable hour and not staying up until 0200 playing Call of Duty. However, I would not agree with holding an APFT after a nightfire range... common sense type stuff.
(0)
Reply
(0)
MAJ FAO - Europe
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
1LT (Join to see) - Fair enough, and I see your point, too. I do think we need to do more to highlight and promote the importance of sleep, though, and many times Soldiers have little to no control over the time they're given to sleep.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Ed Mikus
1
1
0
is the APFT really broken? why do we strive to make it so? for the last 17 years i have heard how we need to change the APFT but not once have i seen the Army act on fixing the tape test.
(1)
Comment
(0)
SFC Combat Engineer
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
The tape test is about to get me flagged. I've been getting taped for years now. Im 6ft 2 and weigh 230lbs. I'm not fat though I'm just a big guy. I have a soldierly appearance in my uniforms. The Army height and weight chart wants me anorexic and goofy. The older I get the harder it is to meet the pitiful standard set by the Army.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
>1 y
If you gave me a week, I could write a 10 page technical paper on how all 5 services PFT/PRT/etc are "broken" SSG Ed Mikus. It's not a knock on the Army/Marines or anyone else, but the fact that the average service member could not tell you what the actual purpose of the (A)PFT is in 2-3 sentences. That's not even getting into the intricacies of Height/Weight or Body Composition.

CC MAJ (Join to see) Capt Richard I P.
(1)
Reply
(0)
MAJ FAO - Europe
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - I'll help write said paper, if you want assistance. :)
(1)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
>1 y
MAJ (Join to see) - I was actually going to shoot you a message yesterday about doing an "article" (not sure who would want to publish) on Skewed Perception of "Physical Fitness."

The general topic keeps coming up, and I've been adding notes over the last 8 months or so~.

It started with this thread.

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-we-adequately-teach-running
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Avatar feed
Should the APFT scores be normed on factors other than age and gender?
LTC Acquisition Intelligence
1
1
0
Really interesting question, and one I think raises a valid point.

That being said, I think we would lose "standardization" if we added more variables.
(1)
Comment
(0)
MAJ FAO - Europe
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
I'd be happy to lose "standardization" in favor of scientifically valid standards.
(0)
Reply
(0)
LTC Acquisition Intelligence
LTC (Join to see)
>1 y
MAJ Jäger, I don't think we (Institutional Army) will be able to account for all the variables.

I'd argue that fixing the body fat composition assessment is less complex that what you are proposing, and we haven't been able to do that.

I believe that the variables you list will merely account for scores slipping up and down; not every test will be a "PR".
(2)
Reply
(0)
MAJ FAO - Europe
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
LTC (Join to see) - SMA says he's looking into changing the tape test, so we'll see.
Accounting for all the variables would make an interesting research project.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
1
1
0
Edited >1 y ago
The simple answer is yes. The more complex answer is, "how would we do it based on all the variables?"

You bring up a great point regarding altitude in your post below (the USMC has an adjusted run portion for that). Table 2-8 (19:30 3 mile run vs 18:00 3 mile run at sea level)

http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCO%206100.13%20W_CH%201.pdf

You also bring up a great point regarding HEAT. to simplify the math a bit, the "optimal" running temperature is "about" 50~ degrees F. For every 20 degrees above that, we burn TWICE as much energy to perform the same task at the same level. That means if you run a mile at 6:00, it takes TWCE as much energy on a 70deg day as it does on a 50deg day if you are at the same fitness level. And FOUR TIMES on a 90deg day. (The USMC runs our PFT in the Winter and Summer....)

As for pollution... I'm not sure how we can reasonably account for that variable. I'm not saying it can't be done, just how it can reasonably be done.

My "major" gripe with our (A)PFT system is that it promotes a "Strong But Dumb" Leadership style. I'll probably get a lot of "Lead from the Front" responses regarding that comment, and I absolutely agree that people should lead from the front... however Leadership in and of itself is NOT a Physical Skill/Trait. It has LINKS to physicality, and has benefits from the physical, but they are all indirect).

Additionally, we give WAY TOO MUCH weight to the (A)PFT for promotion, and have allowed Leadership to apply additional Subjective Standards in addition to the listed Objection Standards that already exist. On the various posts you will hear comments about "I wouldn't recommend anyone with a XXX PFT Score" even though the score is part of a composite point total (Total Soldier Program). As I said, it gives "undue weight to a specific aspect of performance."

This is not to say Physical Fitness is not important, it absolutely is. And we absolutely should incentivize it. However we currently allow Subjectivity into the process.

As MAJ (Join to see) stated in his post, we would probably be better with a simple Pass/Fail system, even if it was a MUCH harder test which took an entire day to complete.
(1)
Comment
(0)
Capt Richard I P.
Capt Richard I P.
>1 y
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS For SgtMaj of the Marine Corps. You REALLY do a good job of convincing me of things I initially disagree with.

At least let me have the CFT. Un-normed. All the same regardless of age, gender, sex, heat, cold, everything irrelevant, and let me weight it greater than the PFT. (This from a guy who substantially benefited from minor old-man modifications to the CFT before leaving active duty.)
(2)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
>1 y
Capt Richard I P. - Shh.. don't say that too loud.. someone will recall my crusty old ass.

I love the CFT concept BTW. I think we need Objective Standards like it (was supposed to be). As a note, it didn't exist while I was still in. However, I saw a few revamps to the PFT, and one of the things I really like about the USMC is that we evolve & adapt our PFT. If "too many" are maxing the score, maybe we need to adjust the scale. If the test isn't indicative of combat conditions, why don't we come up with a test that is? If high elevation is punitive for runners, add a high elevation adjustment! It's not like this can't be changed back later if it sucks.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MCPO Roger Collins
0
0
0
Why are there APFT scores? If they are variable, will assignments be conditional based on scores? No, there should be properly evaluated requirements needed to complete all assigned duties of your branch of service. No exceptions to something that could result in not achieving the mission.
(0)
Comment
(0)
MAJ FAO - Europe
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
This is an excellent question. I think the purpose of the APFT is to ensure Soldiers are maintaining a baseline of fitness, nothing more. I think the importance of the APFT has morphed into something that is used for promotion, assignment, selection, etc---I don't think this is the original intent of the APFT, and perhaps we should return to the original intent.
Normed scores simply would account for environmental factors; we already norm for age and gender, so why not expand our use of science and norm for environmental factors? A good algorithm would be fair to all, so yes, normed scores would be official.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Squad Leader
0
0
0
And this is why I would like a one standard chart for everyone regardless of age or gender one army standard with some units and or MOS's with additional standards/requirements.
(0)
Comment
(0)
MAJ FAO - Europe
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
I could support this, as long as these standards were pass/fail. I've thought about this before---the 60-point standards for females in the higher age ranges probably make for good pass/fail standards for the whole force.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SSG Squad Leader
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y
MAJ (Join to see) - Where to set that standard I don't know it depends on what you expect for a base line of a soldiers physical abilities.
(0)
Reply
(0)
MAJ FAO - Europe
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
SSG (Join to see) - I don't think the APFT was or is intended to be a baseline measure of physical abilities. If it was, its a terrible measure and should be immediately discontinued. But you're right, picking one standard is hard, because it quickly gets to the conversation of what physical standards are actually required. My guess is that minimum requirements are really quite low.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
0
0
0
Leave as them as they are, a person needs to stay fit , so try to run every day to put the body in shape for the run.
(0)
Comment
(0)
MAJ FAO - Europe
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
SFC (Servicemember) - What Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS said--I'm not talking about elite marathoners who are logging 100+ miles a week, or elite professional athletes. I'm talking more of your run-of-the-mill, average Servicemember, and even your really fit Servicemembers. For what we do, running every day is bad advice.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
>1 y
SFC (Servicemember) - Right, but we're in a different class of athlete. When we run "every day." Not running is 3-10 miles. I "didn't run" today and did 5 (light jog because I was recovering from hills over the weekend). Light runs are our recovery (or taper).

The issue with running every day is that it's cardio and it's "difficult" to strength build on a cardio regime at the same time. I trim during marathon season, and tend to bulk a bit in the summer when it's too hot to run outside (when I cut my mileage to 40~ a week).

For "most" folks, they need to balance strength & cardio, hence MAJ (Join to see) comments about FM 7-22 and it not being recommended.
(1)
Reply
(0)
MAJ FAO - Europe
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - I also think, in the Army at least, we've become a force skewed towards an unbalanced perspective of fitness that is overwhelmingly focused on running. Over the last 7 years (since I was lucky enough to move out of normal Army PT), I've hardly run at all. I'm fit, easily max the APFT run, and essentially max the VO2max test (want to measure cardiovascular fitness, the VO2max test might be a good standard to use). Some people like to run; I get this. But running isn't the end all, be all for fitness, especially not in the military. In my limited experience on deployments, I never witnessed an operational need for someone to run more than a couple dozen meters at a time.....
(1)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
>1 y
MAJ (Join to see) - Concur, and have said it for years.

However as a counterpoint, running, or more specifically Cardiovascular Endurance Training is hugely important. Running is a great way to build that.

It's not that we need to run great distances, but we need to push our bodies so they can keep going over massive amounts of time. We could do the same thing with ruck marches... but running takes a pair of shoes, ruck marches takes 2 weeks of planning....
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.

close