Posted on May 17, 2016
CW2 C2 Systems Integrator
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What are the implications of not being able to wear a Pro-Mask while having a beard?

Should Soldiers with dietary needs based on religion receive more BAS to pay for additional food costs?
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SFC Alfredo Garcia
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No and No. I do not wish to sound insensitive but I look at this objectively. This is an all volunteer military. You have the regulations, standards, and expectations before you CHOOSE to join. If they are not acceptable, you do not join.

Military is NOT an equal opportunity career and they explicit permission/reasons to discriminate. For example too old, too short, too young, otherwise physically incapable of accomplishing tasks or missions due to their disabilities. Those were just the physical sides.

A beard for example may interfere with the utilization of a gas mask for instance or are they expected to be provided a modified mask? Or, due to their unique needs, are they to be assigned rear detachment automatically due to the difficulties/challenges this may cause the command? How will this impact the perceptions and morale of the rest of the unit? This means more expenditures, logistical nightmares and more. I applaud that people from all walks of life and beliefs wish to serve their duty but they can wear as they choose off duty. They have vegetarian meals available, even in MRE's. Other choices should be out of pocket. Again, I apologize if I sound like a jerk but we don't assign religions, just missions.
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Cpl John Mathews
Cpl John Mathews
9 y
I guess I am insensitive too. Look up the meaning of the word UNIFORM! It doesn't mean significantly varying from a standard. As others have said, we have a volunteer military, if you can't/won't live up to the regulations then you can find other ways to serve our country that don't require wearing a uniform---CIA, NSA, FBI, or any one of hundreds of federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial agencies.
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Dakota Reed
Dakota Reed
9 y
I am A Christin man myself I admire peoples freedom of religion in this country and that they have the right to practice it to an extent. When you put the uniform on how I see it you represent the Military not you as an individual. Wear A neckless or get A tat if your so set on people physically seeing your religion. I wear A Celtic cross all the time its tight can be hidden not shiny does not get in the way. could be tucked away next to your identification tags. The Military is an origination that you represent you represent them not A church. we don't want people to think we are A religious army America was not founded on that sort of thing it broke away from that sort of thing. hey wear your head dress on your own time. when your A man/women in unformed wear your patrol cap you represent your country and Military nothing more nothing less. that is just my opinion. I am all for God and Country and the person to your left and right. That does not mean I'm going to dress up like the pope in battle rattle. Or on Military time.
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LTC Hardware Test Engineer
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nope. If your religious beliefs prohibit you from adhering to regulations, you should consider another career path.
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SGT David T.
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I am in favor of making accommodations wherever possible. However, said accommodations should not be shouldered at taxpayer expense. Take for instance, the good Captain's headgear in the pic. He should pay for that himself and not be issued it (I know officers buy their own uniforms). Now this can open the door for some very "different" accommodation requests from smaller religious groups. So I think we need to apply some common sense. In the case of Sikhs, a blanket accommodation can be granted for the grooming and alternative headgear as it applies to all Sikhs. In other cases it should be considered on a case by case basis.

As far as the pro-mask goes, I am not sure if the beard will prevent a seal or not. I was always told that it would, but I was told many things during my time in the Army that weren't exactly true. I think if he is willing to accept that risk, then there is no issue. After all, no one is irreplaceable. If he dons a pro-mask during a chem attack, and he dies, the next in line steps up and takes charge. This may sound callous, but if he knows the risks, that's on him.
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SGT David T.
SGT David T.
9 y
TSgt James Emanuel - While I see your point, even the British Empire didn't attempt to make them conform. The military appearance isn't 100% uniform even without the Sikhs. Maternity uniforms, and shaving profiles come to mind.
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SPC Joshua Heath
SPC Joshua Heath
9 y
I've had the mask conversation with CBRN soldiers from multiple countries and civilians that have worn them. It is easy to get a seal with a beard. You have to know how your face will interact with the mask, but all that takes is a bit of training. Otherwise I spot on agree with your point of view.
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TSgt James Emanuel
TSgt James Emanuel
9 y
SGT David T. - Thank you for reminding me. A beard was once a sticking point as pertaining to blacks. Their facial hair caused serious problems with daily shaving. With medical approval, they could let the beard grow, but it had to be neat and trim. Uniforms for maternity are obviously valid medical exemptions. Allowing "religious" headgear is not.
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SGT David T.
SGT David T.
9 y
TSgt James Emanuel - I do see your point. I just don't think we should exclude 500K+ people from service because we ask them to violate one of the most basic tenants of their faith. They simply will not do it. Personally, I could care less if someone shaves as long as they can do the job and do it well. At the end of the day, it comes down to them being able to close with and destroy the enemy.
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Should the Army make exceptions to uniform policy based on religious beliefs?
SFC John Hill
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When I first enlisted there was a list of statements on the back side of the contract (the fine print) you signed off on. One of those statements basically said that you understood that the military may not be able to meet your religious needs.
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Sgt Kris Mann
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No, no accommodations. If you cannot hold to the standard, NJP.
We used to all be green. What happened?
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SSG Instructor
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Edited 9 y ago
As times change, the military should change too. Remember this CPT conformed to the standard when he enrolled at West Point (4 years) and while he was deployed. It shouldn't matter but others will see he has his Sapper Tab and a GAFB badge. The man has served his country proud. He went about the proper channels and procedures to get the Army to recognize his religion and how he can properly represent it under Army standards. As long as other soldiers in uniform follow suit, then this shouldn't be a problem
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MSgt Security Business Analyst
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The Pro Mask will actually fit fine with a beard. I went through Chemical Weapons Instructor School without any issues and had a beard. My mask sealed fine. The US Army has made an exception for Sikhs and their traditional headwear. As a matter of Fact, I enjoy how their attire irritates those we fight and how it enflames others. A lot of people call them, "Rag Heads" and other bigoted names. These are professionals and warfighters. If they have assimilated into our society and hold an allegiance to our country and society, let them have their head gear. It looks better and more professional than what most soldiers wear and how they wear it.
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SFC Michael Bazzell
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This man fought and won against the machine. Anyone actually seeing how he did it and not just bashing him. Congrats to him
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MAJ Keira Brennan
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Imo religion is bronze age gibberish and myth. I think our Republic (and services) would be far better served with disolution of the chaplaincy and the never ending he-she gets to do something different.
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SGT Bryon Sergent
SGT Bryon Sergent
9 y
I disagree sir, Christianity or any other religion is not gibberish, and whether you would like to believe it or not our REPUBLIC was formed on Religion. The fact that they where looking for a place not to be persecuted for what they believed and how they wanted to pursue there own faith and didn't want to conform to Catholicism. Most that came over claimed protestant if I am not mistake( might be).
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SFC Branch Ncoic,
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9 y
I agree wit the Major.
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SGT Bryon Sergent
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Why don't we just change our country, and our military to the beliefs of other nations. Why is it when people from other countries want to bend our rules to fit there own. Isn't the reason that people come from other countries to ours because they didn't like where they where at? So if that is the case why bring the things that you didn't like and pick and choose, then make that new country you have come to, conform to your beliefs? When in Rome do as the Romans! They joined OUR country's Military. They may be a bad asses or not, but you are in OUR military. Why do we have to conform to it. They knew the regs when they joined and now want regs to change.
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SPC Clinic Ninja
SPC (Join to see)
9 y
Last time I checked, we have no official religion, language, or skin color to be a US citizen..... so "They joined OUR country's Military" is bullshit. We are talking about AMERICAN CITIZENS who want to serve OUR country, without violating the basic tenants of their religion.
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SGT Bryon Sergent
SGT Bryon Sergent
9 y
SSG Carlos Madden - Roger I FULLY understand that. So Because I am (Place Religion here) the military should let the special case not shave a wear a turbine. If one can do it what is to say I claim to be whatever religion and not shave. Where does it stop! If they don't have to shave heck, lets just all not shave and leave it to fate. I'm not trying to bash there faith at all.
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SSG Carlos Madden
SSG Carlos Madden
9 y
SGT Bryon Sergent I don't think you're trying to bash anyone, its a fair point. But there's a difference in creating an exception to policy and the Army completely throwing the rule out. The way I see it is if you really want to go though that process, change your religion and paperwork, go through the proper channels and apply for an exception to policy than more power to you. My guess is only people who are truly committed and need these religious exceptions would jump through those kinds of hoops. Realistically, it's a small minority of people and I doubt it will have a great affect on unit moral and readiness. Where does it stop? I have no idea but I also don't think we're going to see a groundswell of service members suddenly convert to sheiks and go though this process just to grow their locks and beards out.

The reality is this process has been around for a while and the Army has only had a few people go though it. "From 1948 to 1984, men of the Sikh religion were permitted to serve while maintaining their articles of faith. In 1984, Gen. John A. Wickham Jr., then Chief of Staff of the Army, eliminated the exception for Sikhs and others who wore 'conspicuous' items of faith. Sikhs who were previously serving on active duty were grandfathered in by the Army. Two Sikhs in the medical field, Col. Arjinderpal Singh Sekhon, a doctor, and Col. G.B. Singh, a dentist, continued to serve until their retirements in 2009 and 2007, respectively..." ("Sikh Soldiers allowed to serve, retain their articles of faith" via Army Times; March 25, 2010).

We're a segment of the US population that constantly takes issue with the fact that we're 1% or less of that population and thus disproportionally affected by recent war. Shouldn't we be looking for more ways to represent the United States' religious diversity in the armed forces so one part of the population isn't shouldering all of the military burden? I think we should.
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SSG Military Police
SSG (Join to see)
9 y
SSG Carlos Madden - That is true. And those people are STILL allowed to do so. Anyone can move here and practice their religion without fear of persecution of their religious beliefs. You can still join the military and practice whatever religion you wish with without fear of persecution. The only thing you can't do, currently, is change the standards of the military based on your specific beliefs. There is no persecution in that and they choose to join the military so they know that is the case going in. The only argument that could possibly be made is if they were drafted as it is then no longer a choice for them to join. However, as I said earlier, it is a conscious choice on their part to join today's military.
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SPC Neil Hood
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Sikhs aren't trying to get away with anything. They want to serve and in fact I bet many serve with distinction. As for more money for food I think they need to figure that out without making a change to BAS. Coupons!!!!!
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CSM Bn Ssa
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This is definitely a situation where you make one concession and a hundred more requests come out of the woodworks. I believe the military should try to accommodate religious beliefs but like anything it opens the door to people to take advantage of the system and be dishonest about their requests.
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SGT Christopher Churilla
SGT Christopher Churilla
9 y
CSM (Join to see) I don't know about making accommodations to Soldiers trying to get in, but once a Soldier is in, then he needs to speak with a chaplain, who will make a determination on whether it is a sincere request or if the Soldier is simply trying to take advantage of the system.
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SrA Edward Vong
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Edited 9 y ago
"It is DoD policy that requests for accommodation of religious practices should be approved by commanders..." [emphasis added] To this exhortation is added, however, a critical caveat: requests for accommodation should be approved, but only "when accommodation will not have an adverse impact on military readiness, unit cohesion, standards, or discipline."

It really depends on the troop's career field, operations, and mission capabilities in my opinion. Accommodations can be as for allowing, but as far as pay goes, we all get the same. I was Muslim while serving and received the same BAH as everyone else. Per Islamic dietary law, our foods had to be Halal (I don't follow this real because I eat everything). With our BAH, we were easily able to buy halal food (if I wanted to). The price was not high.

If I were a commander, I would approve a troop that does not receive BAS living in the dorms to choose to recieve BAS so that they may suit their dietary requirements. They will not be given free meals at the dining facility.
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SFC Grant Ross
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I find that the influences of society have allowed this type of demand/request/behavior to cross the lines into our Military. We as the US Military are an institution, a team. We all signed the blank check to the country to defend against all enemies. We did this willingly and stepped forward into the uniform leaving our individuality at the door. That being said we are not a Military of individuals; we are a cohesive unit. If you want to have your individual rights do not join the Military. Just my two cents, and my first response. Perhaps it's just time for me to retire.
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SFC Grant Ross
SFC Grant Ross
9 y
This opens the flood gates to so much more...BEARDS FOR EVERYONE!!!
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SSG Carlos Madden
SSG Carlos Madden
9 y
Welcome to RP!
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PO2 Logistics Specialist
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If your religious beliefs don't line up with military uniform regulations, I suggest you not reenlist or sign up for another tour of duty. In the military one of the first things that is instilled in us all is uniformity. That's this guys opinion.
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SSG Military Police
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The answer is a resounding no. The uniform should be based on the standards already set forth and should not be altered for any religious reason.. no matter the religion. If you keep it this way then nobody can rightfully claim discrimination because everyone is receiving the same treatment. However, the moment you set aside a standard for one religion then you are going to have to do so for all religions otherwise you actually will be discriminatory. Leave it as is. The service member is or should be aware of the standards prior to joining and don't have to join up if they can't accept it.
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SPC Clinic Ninja
SPC (Join to see)
9 y
Jewish service members already wear yamakas in uniform. Stars of David and Crosses are authorized in uniform, with religions written on dog tags.

And we can get rid of Chaplains while we are at it, right?
No sense having service members who can't pick up an M4 and join the fight...
And their uniforms are altered, too....
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Cpl Software Engineer
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What happened to uniformity shrouded in tradition. Why ask to modify over a century of tradition to placate a small minority. Why serve if it goes beyond your current beliefs.
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SPC Clinic Ninja
SPC (Join to see)
9 y
We added women to the forces in the last century. Should we bind our breasts, shave our heads, and take hormones to keep our hips in check, for your plea of uniformity?

I've got no issue shaving my head, but its hard to run in 15-40lb vest, let alone with a constricting binder.

Uniformity went out the window during Iraq, anyway.... just go to any unit, and you will find guys breaking their shaving profiles, females breaking hair regs, service members tweaking the wear of their uniform to "flatter" their body, SMs in salty-as-hell uniforms, and dickbags in brand new, starched uniforms like they are going to meet the president for lunch.

To have traditional uniformity, you would have to go back to basics, and instill a new level of respect (for the uniform) in about 96% of the military.
I have people in my unit that don't even see what the big deal is, when their American flags are unraveling on their shoulder.
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SPC Clinic Ninja
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When is the last time we got gassed?
How many service members even have pro-masks?
Because I'm the only person in my current unit with one....
Pro-masks have gone the way of bayonets....they are in our history books, and in our military inventory, but no one actually has them and uses them....
I have a mask, and I haven't been to the chamber since BCT in 2009....

And BAS is for Basic Subsistence... if you want to subsist on anything beyond the basics, it comes out of your Base Pay.
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
SSG V. Michelle Woods
9 y
I know many, MANY, veterans would shun such an updated response, however, I too went years without going to the gas chamber. I was too busy deploying.
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CPT Joseph K Murdock
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No, the military is not a religious gathering.
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CPT Platoon Leader
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In America, as a citizen, you have the right to practice your inalienable rights such as free speech, practicing religion and everything else the bill of rights States becsaue they are given to you by a higher power not the Government or governing body where you reside. The army is different, the armyand military in general is not civilian society, it's professional soldiers tasked with the responsibility of protecting our beloved society . serving in my opinion is not a right or a privilege. It's a duty. Something that of your able to you should sacrifice a few years of looking and wearing what you want in order to protect and defend our society if your able. It's giving back to those before you and after you who have allowed you to live peacefully within our beloved society. Exceptions in an Army can only be made on personnel if it's for the good of the army. I am a libertarian, but the army has to run to serve the entire force instead of the needs of the individual which is completely opposite to how civilian life should be. In civilian world no one should be infringed upon because no one should lose their rights at society's request. In the military the group cannot be infringed upon becsaue the loss here is the effectiveness of winning in open combat. You take a oath that says I will protect Constitution and obey the orders of the officers appointed over me so help me God. Not that will want certain accommodations made for me due to my God and then follow the rest of my oath. We should look, move, and fight as a whole, not have certain differences that causes us to loose that uniformity. The work day is from 530 am to whenever last formation is. Wear your uniform and head gear that everyone is wearing. When the day is done switch to whatever civilian outfit you enjoy wearing and wear whatever it is you feel is important. When you wear the uniform you aren't only defending your beliefs but beliefs of people that you may highly oppose. This is your job. This is your duty. Do it.
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